How is SOM different (or not different) from what people do with PC games (mods)

[HwitVlf]

Do I really need to include that part too, just to show what is blatantly obvious to anyone with a brain ? 
" the software and its products are owned by  the supplier FROM SOFTWARE and are protected by international treaty provisions."

I don't care if someone tries to sell an SoM game because From isn't likely to complain about it. But you shouldn't be spreading misinformation saying it's legal and think no one is smart enough to know otherwise. You wrote a couple paragraphs on your site saying how unprecedented it was that a company (From) would give fans unlimited rights to their intellectual property. That's just balderdash.

And where does that say you cannot distribute your King's Field game?

"You can not separate components for use on more than one computer"

It doesn't say anything about not selling your game either.

Let me explain a very simple aspect of the copyright law to you: if they don't EXPLICITLY give you a right, you don't have it. If you're actually living in reality, you should ask where DOES it say you CAN sell a game.

Selling fan mad stuff is common in Japan.

I doubt it, but are you suggesting that somehow makes it legal?

Never mind this is the same disclaimer you'll find on every single piece of software.

No it's not. Several parts, including some I didn't bother to include make it clear this license was specifically written for SoM.

It isn't a document outlining what you can do with the games you make with SOM.

As stated above, you can NOT do anything unless you are specifically granted that right.

If you own a copy of SOM you can make a game and distribute it.

You're lying. "You can not separate components for use on more than one computer."

And From says this contract is only enforceable for Japanese residents. Foreigners enjoy no restrictions.

You're lying.  "protected by international treaty provisions"

And are not forbidden to own a copy of SOM by way of a Japanese reseller.

True, because that right is specifically granted in the license agreement, but completely irrelevant. 

[Holy_Diver]

Do I really need to include that part too, just to show what is blatantly obvious to anyone with a brain ? 
" the software and its products are owned by  the supplier FROM SOFTWARE and are protected by international treaty provisions."

I don't care if someone tries to sell an SoM game because From isn't likely to complain about it. But you shouldn't be spreading misinformation saying it's legal and think no one is smart enough to know otherwise. You wrote a couple paragraphs on your site saying how unprecedented it was that a company (From) would give fans unlimited rights to their intellectual property. That's just balderdash.

This is nonsense. It's game making software. It's for making games. Redistributable games. That is a feature that I am sure is on the box. The game that it generates is equivalent to a save file. You can share it. You can sell it.

And where does that say you cannot distribute your King's Field game?

"You can not separate components for use on more than one computer"

That applies only to SOM itself. Not the games you make with it.

It doesn't say anything about not selling your game either.

Let me explain a very simple aspect of the copyright law to you: if they don't EXPLICITLY give you a right, you don't have it. If you're actually living in reality, you should ask where DOES it say you CAN sell a game.

This is paranoid thinking. There is no copyright on the games. That's like saying if you buy a magic marker you can't sell your drawing without getting permission from its manufacturer. Also licenses are incredibly verbose. If they were not negative that would not be necessary. All software is licensed. Not copyrighted. No one is copying SOM.

Selling fan mad stuff is common in Japan.

I doubt it, but are you suggesting that somehow makes it legal?

It is actually. The copyright holder has to intercede.

Never mind this is the same disclaimer you'll find on every single piece of software.

No it's not. Several parts, including some I didn't bother to include make it clear this license was specifically written for SoM.

Again. If it was special to SOM it would address the unique aspects of SOM. It's drafted just like a word processing software or anything else.

It isn't a document outlining what you can do with the games you make with SOM.

As stated above, you can NOT do anything unless you are specifically granted that right.

Tell that to everyone who buys SOM to make games. This is paranoid. It's embarrassing to even talk this way. You think you don't have a right to sell a game that you did all of the work for? When there is no clause that says you can't. And you don't need the SOM disc to play the games. That's an insult to From' and humanity. I am sure a court would agree enough is implied that the consumer would be in the right to assume that right.

If you own a copy of SOM you can make a game and distribute it.

You're lying. "You can not separate components for use on more than one computer."

The game you make is not a component. Do you think because the art files are copied into the game folder that means everyone must play your game on the computer you installed SOM onto? You're embarrassing yourself.

And From says this contract is only enforceable for Japanese residents. Foreigners enjoy no restrictions.

You're lying.  "protected by international treaty provisions"

That is a statement directly from From Software. Why do you go around calling people liars so casually? The international treaties that are mentioned do not pertain to copying anyway. I can't remember what they were about.

And are not forbidden to own a copy of SOM by way of a Japanese reseller.

True, because that right is specifically granted in the license agreement, but completely irrelevant. 

This is again, another statement from From, just to assure non Japanese users that even though they are not bound by the license they are still encouraged to use SOM, and not in some kind of legal limbo.


EDITED: Also. Just to be clear. Everything here is totally self evident. The only relevant question as far as I am concerned is do you have a right to sell King's Field games. With King's Field IP. As far as I am concerned you do. You'll have to prove otherwise in court if you want to make some kind of a point.


PS: Have some faith in humanity. You can be pretty dark company. You don't want to scare anyone anyway.

[Madison Lastrega]

Great debate.  I remember having this same discussion with DMP like three years ago. When I first started Fallen by the way, my plan was to sell it and make like a dollar or two profit.   He advised me against it....his dark destiny has been redistributed thousands of times. It is freeware fan game, he does charge 5 bucks for a DVD copy. That fee is forhis cost of burning the disk and printing the manual..... That is his cost so by law he can charge for his disk. However he makes it known that the game is freeware....

Now let's say he charged 15 bucks for the software its self, and let's say his game was the end all to end all, and he sold a million plus units and was a breakout indie success, like super meat boy or fez.......  I can almost bet from would demand a cut, because he used som. From software is still in business after all, might be different if they went belly up..... In fact they would sue, and win just for name rights to kings field alone....   

Now if he bought the devolpers copy of let's say the unreal engine for 15000 bucks, he could build any darn thing he wanted, however he would still be obligated to from for royalty fee for the characters names in the game , as they are kings field characters, and from owns kings field......

To be safe I have to change the names of my characters in SQS, and the name of the game itself from swordquest.
And I HAVE legal rights to recreate the game how I see fit as it is now open source.... However DC comics owns rightsto a comic book that bears the same name and has the same characters in it.... DC told me from ttheir own mouths.....  Change the names or face possible litigation..... That was enough for me to hear.   Hence my version of swordquest is called SQS........ 2 people you don't,t want to mess .with.... the IRS and DC comics.

Now asking a donation is one option I will take, I might get a buck or two, but if not oh well . building a game for me is fun and a dream of mine.... If I make something on it fine if not that's great too..... But my butthole is to precious to risk crossing DC and from software.   :-)         2cents from ML......................

[Verdite]

"Rathmor could easily be the game of the year. Not because Verdite is so great, but because the competition is so pathetic."

Actually because I started off making games here, I think the people who helped me out will be partly responsible if my game is a success. John, yourself, DMP, Madison, Scott, Guyra, Mord. Everyone has helped in their own way, creating and finishing a game is a mammoth task in itself, so it doesnt surprise me that people dont make alot of games on their own. Dont like to blow my own trumpet, making a 100% custom game on your own takes dedication.

So hopefully my imagination will be appreciated through my game, not only because my game lacks competition.

[Madison Lastrega]

Best answer yet......   Thanks too for giving props to all of us..... Your new work inspired me to come back, so thank you for the 3 years of dedication :-) ................ML

[HwitVlf]

Mick, you're the only person I know who can be shown overwhelming evidence and still deny reality- it's like a super power. Ever think of putting on a super hero disguise and fighting crime? Even if the bad guys shot you, you could just insist they hadn't and the bullet holes would disappear.   

My work in translating games is related to this topic from a legal standpoint, and I've talked about it to some people who are knowledgeable on copyright precedent. Translation patches generally contain no copyrighted work, but game companies still issues cease and desist orders to translating teams occasionally. Translators have never bothered to resist such an order so there's no court precedent saying that translating is legal or not. But in general, copyright rulings tend to favor strict protection of copyrighted material. The original creators have sole ownership and right to benefit from their creation unless those rights are specifically granted to another by contract. SoM's agreement clearly says that From maintains ownership of the software (which includes game.exe).

Michael Jordan recently won a law suit against a restaurant who ran an ad saying "Congratulations Michael" because his name is copyrighted. When Arnold Schwarzenegger was governor, he won a suit against a company that made bobble headed political dolls and forced them to stop making a doll that looked like him. I don't think copyright law is fair, but that's just how it is.

So ML pretty much hit the nail on the head; From isn't likely to cause trouble unless a fan game made it big, but they could if they wanted to. And who wants to go to court and fight it out for a chance that the court would rule in your favor?

[Verdite]

"Now asking a donation is one option I will take, I might get a buck or two, but if not oh well . building a game for me is fun and a dream of mine.... If I make something on it fine if not that's great too."

Is it okay to recieve donations rather than sell your game? Joe I recall you mentioning that you contacted From and they said it would be ok for you to give the proceeds of your FBTW game to a suicide charity. See, I was listening 

While developing Rathmor I see it as no threat to From. I'm developing my game for free, and even if I did get good recognition for being a developer, it would be, in sense, completely detracting for From to put down a KF style fan game given the fan base KF has. Not to mention that someday From could possibly return to its flagship KF series, and if thats the case... It needs its fanbase alive. If Rathmor takes off, then more and more people will want to enjoy SOM and KF games. This could possibly generate an influx of new fans for From, which would give many happy returns to all their games.

If I thought for a moment that I would be handing my ass to anyone after making a FREE game using my own time that I could have used otherwise constructively, I would have given up years ago. If making my FREE game is going to put me in a difficult situation or anyone around me, then I should be made aware of that.

Finally, from a moral standpoint, it is completely wrong to let a fan site continue to make games with the intention of bringing their creators down along with their games. From knows we are here making games, a company dont just release a product then dissimilate themselves from it, especially if there is a possibility of harvesting potential data to be used in their future games. To be fair I imagine this site has been combed on a regular basis. Would be a lost oppertunity otherwise.

[HwitVlf]

I would be very interested to know if From did reply to you Joe. That might be the most credible gage we have to measure their attitude on the subject. Very cool of you to donate too!

If making my FREE game is going to put me in a difficult situation or anyone around me, then I should be made aware of that.

I didn't mean to imply that there was impending risk of trouble. I think the worst case scenario would be a "cease and desist" order for anyone. And even if that order was ignored, I think there is zero chance of anything happening beyond civil action (as opposed to criminal). Some companies like Sony and Nintendo are famous for taking civil action at the drop of a hat- closing fan sites that had pictures of their characters, shutting down translation projects etc. But I have never heard of From doing anything like that.

Based on statements I've read in interviews with From employees, I speculate that they would actually be happy at the work being done here, but I have no clue for sure.

[dmpdesign]

Just to chime in on some things ML was talking about, I could never sell my game because its called "King's Field"  that is most certainly protected intellectual property. The world, characters, story and likeness are all From's work, I would be 100% sure I would fail epicly if I tried to sell that game.

There are multiple laws beyond just basic copyright laws that would have to be looked into for selling any game made with SoM I am sure.

In Ben's case he is replacing all graphical assets with his own, which is a big help to it being feasible, and he isnt calling it KF or using any of the KF likenesses.

Earlier this year I had to sign a contract to produce a certain number of video games for another company to distribute...the contract was 19 pages long and there were a dozen or so different agreements within related to game engine, ip, distribution and so on..all written in a language only lawyers comprehend.  It is fairly complicated and scary stuff honestly, I wouldn't go suggesting to anyone to do any sales without first consulting an attorney, but that of course is really only if you think you are going to make real money off it.

My question to anyone who wants to make a salable game is why would you choose SoM in the first place?  The point of it is to make KF clones, in its state circa PS2 era.   Its a fun tool for an individual because its easy to pick up and use, but to even begin to dream about anything modern you must first rely on a completely set of tools being developed by, and don't take this personally HolyDiver, a singular fan.  I am not saying SomEx won't eventually be viable for an engine to make games for sale, but who knows when that could be finished, years from now perhaps?  Assuming that Holy decides to stick with it to the end (which he very may well do) or doesn't get hit by a bus!

Its wonderful to partake in the development and experience of watching a piece of software grow, the steps you guys make are amazing, but if I were making a game I wanted to make a living off of, the last place I would start is SoM.  Maybe in a few years when HolyDiver releases a masterpiece of technology, sure, but not now.

Just my 2 cents, sorry if I hurt any feelings/egos.

[Holy_Diver]

Mick, you're the only person I know who can be shown overwhelming evidence and still deny reality- it's like a super power. Ever think of putting on a super hero disguise and fighting crime? Even if the bad guys shot you, you could just insist they hadn't and the bullet holes would disappear.   

You know this is really unsettling. I am not sure I can carry on this discussion.

My work in translating games is related to this topic from a legal standpoint, and I've talked about it to some people who are knowledgeable on copyright precedent. Translation patches generally contain no copyrighted work, but game companies still issues cease and desist orders to translating teams occasionally.

That's because you are copying the game. The text of the game. And if not in patch form you are literally copying the game. You don't seem to understand that copyright exists to forbid forgeries and straight up copies of a product.

Software licenses tell you how you can use a piece of software. The default is you can do anything you can think of with the software.

SoM's agreement clearly says that From maintains ownership of the software (which includes game.exe).

It doesn't say that. You own it. You bought it. It's on your computer. It says you can't copy it. The files here http://svn.swordofmoonlight.net/ are a breech of copyright. The disassembly provisions exist so that you can't make SOM_RUN work without the CD being inserted.

What you are saying is Microsoft owns every .doc file on the planet. You are not thinking things through. You are too arrogant. And you seem to have a paranoid conception of reality where companies like From that produce Sword of Moonlight King's Field Making Tools are predatory and deceptive in doing so. Or would be so twisted as you seem to project as to litigate against someone making a King's Field game with a King's Field Making Tool. It's absurd to even have this conversation. It's insulting to From', to humanity, to yourself included. It's really sick and twisted and unsettling and a waste of time. A true perversion if there ever was one. 

I employ you to lighten up. Whether you can appreciate it or not, you are a dark blemish on the body of the world. It isn't helping. And it's going to make SOM look bad if we keep having people who will stop at nothing to utter such unsettling things hanging on.


PS: I am deploying such strong language to highlight the severity of the charges here. I could care less. My only problem is the image problem this will make for the SOM community. We don't need morose parties hanging around. I am a happy-go-lucky guy. I can't tolerate this dark negativity. It ills me to the core.