Long term KF project

[Holy_Diver]

^I won't develop this much here. But it occurred to me that the 4 crystals setup in the proposal for V is actually very good.

I see it like a Dragon Ball adventure, where you travel with companions using the Dark Slayer as a compass.

First some background on Dark Slayer. This only occurred to me very very recently since I've been thinking about combining magics. Mixing them to get hybrid effects.

I shortly determined that the best effect for mixing all four magics (fire, water, wind, earth) is lightning, because you need all four to make a lightning bolt. You need the earth obviously to attract it. And you need heat water and air to form the storm clouds that generate the bolt...

Then its pretty obvious that since Dark Slayer has all four elements being equal, that its sword magic just has to be lightning based.

But! It only later occurred to me (like days ago) that the name itself, Dark Slayer, perfectly captures a lightning bolt in the middle of the night. Its like the dark of the night itself is literally slayed right before your eyes. Like a giant black sword ripping through it.

To me this is awesome. In fact so much of this comes together so well, its downright mysterious. I can't remember off the top of my head what the sword magic for Dark Slayer is in KF2 and 3. But this is why we are discussing refactoring everything.

And if there is any question. I want to make something that will bring the world to its knees, so as effectively as possible we can make the best case going forward for both SOM and making games in a totally public domain share and share alike way.

I imagine something that makes the crowd that liked SOTC think this new thing, KF, is orders of magnitude more magnificent. And no I am not a writer. I write code. But I can see myself taking on directorial responsibilities, like the director of a movie, I think that is what I am best qualified for actually. But I'd probably be one of those directors that angers everyone involved, so that's the only reason I have doubts about even playing that role. Normally its not a problem, but if you are trying to do something open, and social, then pissing everyone off is probably going to do more harm than its worth (I can always make my directors cut version after the dust settles)


Finally as for V. The Dark Slayer is perfect for this. And here is why. In KF we talk about the dragon knights I think. And there would be dragon kings you'd think too. So I imagine there was a time when Elegria was a federation with 4 dragon kings in each corner. Fire in the north, Water in the east, Wind in the west, and Earth in the south. And they were dragon kings because their power came from dragons, or what I would submit is where the magic actually comes from (edited: actually this is simple, dragon+knight=magic+knight) and probably they kept the company of dragons. Their subjects may have believed the kings were dragons.

And federal seat was in the middle of the continent, where Verdite is. The king of the continent was called the Black Dragon, because there are no black dragons, but instead that is where the four magics came together. Each king had a crystal where their magic was consolidated. And the Black Dragon had a black crystal. And that is the Dark Crystal, which is what the Dark Slayer used to be. And the black dragon wielded lightning through the combined might of the four satellite kings and their kingdoms.

So the Dark Crystal was like a key used to access the other crystals, since the middle kingdom would be the axis through which the others would meet and make decisions. Round table style. And the remains of the Black Dragon king are among the ancient ruins that the cemetery of KF1 sits astride according to its back story.

I think this period would have seen the continent more populated and prosperous than ever, in a way that would not even be befitting a proper King's Field game, which as we know, must be desolated

And I think the kings would have known of other continents that would have been their colonies. But eventually the federation broke down and civil war ensued. It's possible that it was after that that Elfos and Elwin had enough and departed taking the dragons with them.

According to my back story notes Sylval would have already been AOL. So I don't think fire dragons would have been around. But they could have been believed to be nesting beneath Melanat in the mantle below the earth's crust. I think fire dragons are only ever summoned as transient spells, or appear if the world is about to end and be made anew. Only a great hero could get in the way of that.

[Holy_Diver]

I used this (above) to fill in the back story for two new swords I've planned for IV:

Frostbite & Firebrand

These swords are each halves of the Dragon Sword Excalibur forged of finest steel and bequeathed by the gods to the Black Dragon Arthur, [the first] king of the Four Dragon Kings.

When Elfos and Elwin fled the world in the shadow of ruinous infighting among the kingdoms, they separated Excalibur into Frostbite and Firebrand, leaving Frostbite in two pieces with the secluded pure blooded elves of Melanat to be let loose no sooner than the worlds faintest hour.

Valad misplaced the remaining half. He is sure that he left it somewhere he knows not. Excalibur itself was a double edged blade. As two halves each of the blades are single edged sabres nearly oriental in design.

PS: there are no plans to recombine these into Excalibur. They are more useful as halves, because Frostbite has 0 fire affinity it is able to pass through a Fire field without disrupting the field. Its earth affinity is quite low too so it won't likely affect an Earth field either. Firebrand is the same except for Water and Wind. In the new system magic swords are more unique in having affinities missing. Since all common blades consist of all four elements in nearly equal values. Excalibur was just such a sword, probably without even sword magic (still useful for interacting with any kind of elemental field)

EDITED: Neither are these particularly powerful compared to the likes of the Moonlight or Dark Slayer. Mid level fair truly.

EDITED: I may be wrong but I think KF4 featured a fire and ice sword prominently. Maybe not. Maybe all elements were represented equally. But anyway that's one more coincidental similarity to tie the games together thematically if so.

[Holy_Diver]

Frostbite & Firebrand kind of remind me of Vampire Hunter D's sword. But not quite.

I have a feeling that it would be interesting if the third trilogy (long ways away I know, unless they are worked on in parallel at some point) protagonist, first game, a half-demon, somehow begins the game with both of these in his possession. I think this would be then KF's Alucard moment, so you'd have these two magical swords from the get go, but due to the weakened influence of magic in the world they might not be so powerful, but could grow in power as the player learns to wield magic against the rules of the world.

First of all. Being a half-demon would be interesting, in that you can do super human moves. Have a much more impressive jump just for instance. A normal jump, much less wearing armoring, is not all that impressive.

And having two swords would make the character stand out, as being more like Edge in Final Fantasy IV. Kind of like an ambidextrous ninja,. And since the swords are single sided blades, it would be an interesting opportunity to introduce non-violent gameplay, so that somehow the player could use the backsides of the swords to knock targets out without killing them. Like you see in a lot of stealth games nowadays. Plus the PC could have vampire like abilities to put people to sleep by attacking at very close range from behind or something (I am not sure how you'd work these into the controls without extra buttons to the side, but maybe if the character never used shields, these special abilities could just use the shield controls)

Many of your opponents would be robots (other weapons available would be sci-fi things for the most part too) so even being such a formidable character, you'd still have a very difficult time at times. Other times it might be fun to just role play an unmatched character.

[HwitVlf]

I think the word translated as "demon" is more accurately rendered as "Evil Spirit".  Just like the word which is commonly translated as "magician" these days is closer to "Master of Evil Spirits".  Mind you, I'm not talking about the proper name which was phonetically spelled after the western word; to Japanese ears, that would have just like a made up name so it would be better approximated in a Western game by using a phonetic spelling of a Japanese word.  "Magician and "demon" seem like dumbed down western approximations for something that could have a much better and rich back story. "Demons" have been made too much a cliche by every fantasy game/movie/book made during the last 30 years to be interesting. I think giving them a more colorful backstory and explanation- something like Hungry Ghosts, would be cool.

[Holy_Diver]

I think the word translated as "demon" is more accurately rendered as "Evil Spirit".  Just like the word which is commonly translated as "magician" these days is closer to "Master of Evil Spirits".  Mind you, I'm not talking about the proper name which was phonetically spelled after the western word; to Japanese ears, that would have just like a made up name so it would be better approximated in a Western game by using a phonetic spelling of a Japanese word.  "Magician and "demon" seem like dumbed down western approximations for something that could have a much better and rich back story. "Demons" have been made too much a cliche by every fantasy game/movie/book made during the last 30 years to be interesting. I think giving them a more colorful backstory and explanation- something like Hungry Ghosts, would be cool.

What words are you referring to? Akuma? Madoushi? Either way in this case. Monster and Demon have very specific meaning. Read the Races post. A Monster is like an Arthurian monster. It has elemental magic. A Demon is an engineered monster artificially enhanced with Light magic, or an offspring of such a monster. Enhanced by Guyra's experiments, some of which probably took place in the lab of KF2, where you find the last Light crystal.

Guyra is a master of Light and Shadow as the plate near his lair says. Seath is the master of the elements. Seath's minions are monsters. Guyra is weak against the elements since they are not of his nature. So he makes his Demon army to protect him. I may be wrong (I could check) but having played KF1 and KF2 not long ago, I am nearly certain that the Demons, the bipedal things with bat wings and tails, are called "Demons", like Dimon or something close to that (other than this I can only advise against reading individual kanji literally... also Shadow Tower's worlds are kind of based on Buddhist realms or whatever, including Hungry Ghosts)

According to the backstory for these games no monsters existed in the world until Valad separated himself into the dragons Guyra and Seath, though I thing that truly Guyra and Seath separated Valad now, but because the dragons are the organs of the gods to Valad he felt that this was done of his own volition. Consciously he wanted to give the races a god and a devil to rally around so to stop their warring, even if it meant dividing everyone up into two camps like axis and ally powers he figured this was better than a royal rumble (all against all) but subconsciously I think he was growing lonelier and lonelier as the only remaining god, and decided if there were two of him, at the least he would not be so lonely. But truly this sense of loneliness was the will to power of Guyra and Seath tearing at him from the inside out...

Guyra and Seath are like the mind of Valad. Just as we have two lobes in our brain, Guyra is the analytical lobe (left) and and Seath is the emotional lob (right) and so as the logical and magical halves of Valad separated his body, the Dragon Tree, was the only remaining husk, and in the madness that remained in it, instead of being the bed of the world's vegetation, it became instead the bed of the worlds monsters. So in a way the monsters are plantlike. As faerie folk often are, so anything like a sprite is classified as a monster.

Demons are more logical, like a dream that seems logical, however meaningless it may be, they follow rules, and orders, and can be very loyal, despite their monstrous origins. But monsters are disloyal. The demons in this way have much more in common with demonic beings the way they are portrayed in stories of the occult, and monsters have more in common with the kid friendly folklore of the old world. Demons then are more like the devils of modern day religions.

Anyway since this event birthed the monsters, it pretty much makes no sense at all to set a game prior to this period, because you'd have nothing to do battle with but men, animals, and dragons. The true dragon knights (like the final class equal Strength and Magic) existed prior to the monsters, though it may be that the title remained up to the events of the trilogy, either in legend, or rank.


PS: Just to be clear. The way damage works in these games is Fire blocks Fire. Which is the way its always worked. Monsters have no (built in) Light affinity (in theory they could still wear armor; indeed a half-monster PC may need to do so) the only affinity that the Moonlight Sword possesses. So a monster is completely at the mercy of the Moonlight Sword. It has no defenses. The power of the wielder is translated directly into damage. Demons on the other hand do have defenses. So a Demon is more than anything a challenge for the player even in the late game after attaining the Moonlight. Also a Demon was once a monster, so a Demon is an enemy that in theory can have no weaknesses, making it the ultimate challenge. Even Guyra and Seath have weakness, and very wide open ones, despite their immense power.

Likewise Light (aka. Holy) armor is of no value versus monsters. For them you need elemental armor. But versus Demons its a must.

EDITED: Also just to be absolutely clear. Light here includes Shadow. So like the moon that is half light and half shadow, this affinity swings both ways, but it is ultimately meaningless because it is a single affinity. It probably doesn't even make sense to say Light is holy and Shadow is unholy. If anything is unholy its the elemental magic probably. But truly Light is only called Holy because it represents law, which modern men came to value and associate with the daylight, where magic, and monsters, were associated with the night and considered unholy for obvious reasons, but most of all unlawful, because they follow no logic in their ultimate manifestations, and with most men, especially men of the priesthood, that does not sit well...

On the other hand you can also call magic holy. That is what Seath represents. He is more like a Shinto deity. And Guyra is a western deity. It's possible the mysterious people of the east worship Seath like Shintoism in Japan. Whereas we know the Three Kingdoms came to worship the forest dragon, aka Guyra, and that is fitting because he is the literal source of the light that they consider holy (though the true source is the Moonlight sword which arguably existed before everything, and if there is any true source of goodness in the world it's the players who ultimately make away with the Moonlight and use it to their own ends; it's Light/Shadow so it bends all ways on the moral spectrum of law)

[Holy_Diver]

PPS: Light magic isn't really magic. It's anti-magic. You could call it logic, but that just confuses the discussion of game play mechanics. It is linked to Earth magic (born of primeval matter and the proto-moral split of the overworld from the underworld) and the Magic stat still governs it... we call it Magic by convention, but really its more like Mind than Magic. There is an anti-magic for each element, but we'll probably never learn of the others, since the world of man is one born of Earth, and the world of King's Field mirrors the world of men, AKA reality. So were a different anti-magic to take root (only magic, illogic, prevents the anti-magic from coalescing into chaos, incompatible logic) you'd end up with a non-magical reality of a completely different design...

In other words, a logical world, but not one recognizable to real world physicists. In other words, alien worlds, that might find a home within one of H.P. Lovecraft's weird tales (edited: that's the internal logic anyway. To my mind the world of KF is not even a real world. Its always a VR world designed to more or less therapeutic ends. And that is why it bears such a resemblance to reality. Seath and Guyra are AIs used to guide the player towards some personal revelation like good cop bad cop therapists. When its all over the player has a better confidence and understanding of themselves. That is what the Truth Glass and Dragon Fruit represents... regardless if games don't possess a psychological underpinning they are reduced to joyride power fantasies, and its too much of a burden to accept the world of KF as a wholly coherent universe; after all, we are just men playing at god when we build our little toy worlds)

[Holy_Diver]

You know if you followed this setup to its logical conclusion you come to the almost unavoidable realization...

If Jean was a prodigy with Light magic. And Guyra chooses him as his champion. Then you have to conclude that Jean was probably half Demon by some means. It might not sit well with everyone's impressions of Jean, but it would sure put the rest of Jean's story in a better light, or by that I mean it would make a lot more sense.

And I don't think it would be out of character for the series. It's always complex. And every lead character has fallen or met a tragic fate in the following game that includes them. Almost as if once they become an NPC they are shadows of there former selves.

I don't think the series would benefit from adding "Light Dragons" to the mix at all. And so Guyra's experimentation with Light is the only explanation for rare humans being born with Light magic. I know there were light mages in the past, but I think the creation of Demon's would've been long ago too.

(I just want to add that being a Demon or 1/Nth demon doesn't mean you are a bad guy. It just means you have built in light affinity proficiency. Demons could even be forerunners to more modern day humans... My working concept for the Ep.7 is there is a little bit of Demon in all humans, and that is actually how the half-demon character is born. Eg. both of his parents appeared to be full blooded humans, even still their kid clearly not. Not an uncommon occurrence. Also the vampire like ruling Demons do prey on humans, but there reasoning is they won't allow worms to sit on the top of the food chain, and they only drain hot blooded humans to the quick, because they feel that thins the herd, and its the hot blooded ones that make war. They tend to leave the other races alone since they are not warlike and do not bury their dead. I think that's interesting. We take it for granted that nothing preys on us, but its not that unnatural in nature, and I think the elves would relate to it and approve of it)

[Holy_Diver]

Here is a new section (half filled out) on magic. My goal here is to solidify the relationship of Light magic to the other four elementary magics, and to introduce the Void affinity, which is absolutely non-magical. Still in a techno-setting the Void affinity can represent purely physical stuff that looks like magic. Indeed in a world devoid of magic (sound familiar?) only Void exists (edited: its also worth clarifying that Light magic is in no way synonymous to light itself. Ie. as defined by Wikipedia)

Magic

Magic is believed to draw its power from the existence of Dragons. Its opposite is logic. But no man comprehends such things. When logic meets magic the two are annihilated in an exquisite show of light and power that is said to mark the death of dragons. A mere guess on the half of men. Or a hypothesis, as modern men of science will say. Men of the cloth have their own name for this phenomenon: Holy, most treasured, but little do they understand that in truth; it is the safety of logic (from magic) that brings them peace of mind, their true object of reverence.

Fire
Water
Wind & Air
Earth
Light & Shadow

Light, sometimes called Holy, is relatively new form of magic known to men.

It owes its existence in the world to the Earth Dragon Guyra; he himself being a creature of pure logic, aimed to temper magic with his logic at great cost to his own kind. Earth dragons are known to be solitary and untrusting in nature. But even among earth dragons Guyra is singularly despised for his unapologetic treachery.

Light magic is incompatible with the elementary magics, Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth. It floods the dark with light just as well as is it hews shadows from blinding light. If carefully focused light is able to wreak destruction unrivaled even by the elementary magic of fire.

The most feared magi of light do not shudder to command slumbering demons from the depths of The Void.

The Void

When magic is annihilated completely by logic, what remains is only void. Within this void what logic survives (if any) will continue to exist. Although outwardly void appears to be the stuff of nothingness. Needless to say, for anything of magic the void is a hostile place. Even dragons must be commanded to venture near.

Technically Light is Earth Logic. But all logic is dormant where there is no magic. Other logics can exist, but they would appear alien to us, and cannot exist alongside other logic, because each kind of logic (or a blending) fills space like a gas, and that's how you end up with a reality that follows rules of law. The absence of law is chaos, or swirling logics. Magic is the only thing that can put logic into order. So it is up to magic to decide the nature of a reality.

In our case it is Earth magic that won the war of magics. Also a word on why Light or Holy magic summons demons. For one thing, the other magics summon dragons, so by rule Light magic needs to be able to summon awesome creatures too. But there is also precedent for this in human legends, and I try to mirror human legends as much as possible in my attempts at divination of the KF universe here...

Anyway, it is told that King Solomon (presumably a holy man) summoned/commanded "demons" to construct his architectural feats and what have you. Also in Japan[ese], the word for demon is pretty open ended. Many games (and such) will refer to angels (and gods/kami too) as demons without distinction. It can pretty much refer to anything that demonstrates agency but is neither animal (we are including man here) or vegetable so to speak. It's true the same kanji that is used in the word Evil is in there, but that just denotes suspicion, as any man would be right to doubt an unnatural being.

MODERATED: If you are the president of Egypt you'll probably be offended by this.


PS: As for souls. NPCs don't have souls. Only player characters have souls. In other words its a non (as in meta) issue. And there is no soul collection (a la Dark Souls) in King's Field games!


EDITED: Also its pretty obvious to see that Demons in their purest form are the equal opposites of Dragons. I think this is fitting. There is a history in science of anthropomorphising theories by referring to them as Demons. Both because of their logical, and often flawed, qualities... and also because they would keep theoreticians from getting any sleep and haunt them throughout their waking hours. Anyway I like the idea of blending KF with science like qualities. It brings it closer to unification with the likes of Armored Core, and makes it a fertile bed for many more kinds of settings and themes. Plus it just brings it ever closer to the shared human experience (if that means anything to you)

EDITED: In fact half-demons like half-dragons probably need not even have any visual differences whatsoever. So if you are born with elementary magic you are half-dragon, and if you are born with light magic half-demon, and if both, then you are half-and-half

[Holy_Diver]

^Also just because the other magics are not filled out yet. If you are wondering where traditional necromancy and such fits in. That is all part of the elementary magics. Pretty much all of the magics are dualistic. So the undead is Earth magic. Ghosts are Wind magic, as are skeletons suspended in air like puppets.... or Water magic when suspended in water. Wraiths (ghosts with qualities of fire) are Fire magic of course!

EDITED: And if you really need something that looks like black clouds that isn't storm clouds, that can be Void, because the magic would basically be like the vacuum of space in magic bullet form or whatever. You could do that as a Holy magic too if it is balls of shadow or darkness or whatever. Shadow is good for invisibility and stuff like that. Fog (or Mist: Fire+Water) would be the next best thing for that.

[Holy_Diver]

Here are some tidbits on possible 2 player play in games V and VI...

I think each game could have a different kind of "multiplayer" game play. The original trilogy games it seems like would be more difficult to work multiplayer into. You could imagine additional players assuming the roles of the surviving knights in the first game. Maybe there could just be straight up 2 player gameplay in KF2 since it's 2 after all, where you can start the game with another survivor of the shipwreck not far away. A cabin boy or something. In KF3 Mina (is it Lyn?) seems like the obvious pick. Anyway I believe in traditional 2 player games. But in KF1 there are more than one spare knights, so it could be an exception just for the heck of it.

I also like passive 2 player where someone can sit down and just take over the 2nd player character just for fun. You can also asynchronous play where the characters do their own thing on their own time. Anyway it wouldn't be single screen play obviously.


So right, my best concepts for V is player 2 is a teenage blonde (if not Asian) boy who is a half-monster. He looks normal except for webbed digits and he can breath underwater to assist with underwater trials, and to save Player 1 if you drown.

In VI the game play is different. Player 2 is a demon huntress whose task it is to hunt down and capture Player 1. So its kind of competitive play, but shes still a romantic interest (the Player 2 characters usually are)

She'd probably have some help from other demons in her posse that would assist her the same way the animals assist Player 1. I think Player 1 carries the Moonlight sword with him for some reason. His job is to clear out monsters from villages maybe, and its the best tool for the job. Plus its very light. I dunno. I think he is captured though mid game, his falcon flies the Moonlight away, so you can't use it to escape captivity or something. Then maybe you get convinced that the demons are trying to help, and things turn coop, and you race back to the castle too late to stop what happens...

The castle is on Melanat. The Moonlight and Dark Slayer are brought together and somehow that revives Guyra and Seath. But Melanat is surrounded by demons. Milia leads the demons, and is scolded by Guyra for impersonating him (Guyra is dead in KF3: Milia is impersonating him in KF3 and KF1; as Guyra created her to do, but not after his death) and ultimately since Guyra has the upper hand Seath is sealed inside Melanat by the demons and Guyra. The whole island is sealed off from the rest of the world, along with most of the key characters. So that in VII you find the world remade by demons, magic is tightly regulated, and part of the game probably involves breaking the seal and letting magic (Seath) loose to reshape the world...

I think Guyra wants people to forget about dragons (magic) and so he inhabits Solomon like Seath inhabits Jean in KF3. Solomon serves as a foil to VII's Player 1, who will probably be named Damien. Damien has Frostbite and Firebrand, and Solomon has the Moonlight and Dark Slayer, and somehow they face off at some point for dramatic effect. VII is millennia after VI, so that would make Solomon (Guyra) appear to be immortal.


PS: I think Giants would be prominent in V. Since the earth is flooded like a biblical deluge event, the Giants would all awaken from under the earth (otherwise they would drown) and there would be no plants after the millennia long drought, so it would be up to the elves to take their ark like life banks and transplant the plants and animals there to the highlands. Which will prove difficult because its hard to tell plants from monsters, and monsters would be planting themselves like weeds. So the villagers would have to work to weed out the monsters so the plants have a chance...

I think the Giants know about the demons on the other continent. Because they can communicate when they dream somehow while they've been hibernating all of the time since the trilogy. I don't know what would happen if lots of water flooded over a planet, but it seems to me like it would take a while for it to soak into the ground. So maybe there is just some time before the continent reemerges. It could still be largely underwater along the shores in VI, to make the continent appear different from it does in III.

I imagine Dwarves being more like Vikings. They could be master ship builders in a pinch. Since the humans wouldn't be up to the task having no memory of water. There could be some old pirate ships dry docked at Melanat. But you wonder if they'd be seaworthy or not. Maybe the dwarves could build replicas of them. The captain of the boat the players ride on could be a dwarf I reckon.


EDITED: Maybe Guyra revives Guyra and Seath in VI by possessing Solomon then and there. Of course that's just how they'd manage to materialize themselves. Probably they were somehow revived by the swords being recharged (since they are mirrors of one another) and then they just have to be scraped against each other to exorcise the dragons. Maybe you can think of something better. I can't.