Long term KF project

[Holy_Diver]

I'm just posting a redirect here so I know everyone sees this:

http://www.swordofmoonlight.net/bbs2/index.php?topic=139.0

It can be kind of easy to miss because I've stickied it.

Anyway I've had kind of an idea like this stuck in my head for a long time. It's just now all coming together. I'd like to see a game to rival the corporate games, or even make a mockery of them, born of everyone who wants to working on it opensource style just like a lot of software is developed nowadays. I don't see any reason why games should be any different. And I think SOM is the platform for the job, and I think KF is game with the pedigree.

I still think KF2 is the best game of all time. And the quintessential 3D adventure game. So its only right for the first big opensource game to be KF and herald a new era of 3D video games in the same way I think KF heralded the arrival of 3D video games.

I am going for a Shadow of the Colossus slayer but with a more conventional experience so that it doesn't feel like a flagrant exercise in minimalism.


PS: also I am working on new controls for SOM that I think will be the dominant controls for SOM games in the KF vein going forward. They've turned out really well and much better than expected, including: dodging/rushing, jumping, ducking, climbing, hanging, fast turning, shields, all without any new buttons, so pay attention if you are into in that sort of thing.

PPS: Don't be surprised if I don't reply to this thread. I'd lock if I could. Feel free to do so. I honestly don't have any reason to navigate back to here, but I will leave the tab open for a day or two.

[Holy_Diver]

This project has a name and a wiki page now (http://en.swordofmoonlight.org/wiki/King%27s_Field_Episode_IV:_A_New_Hope)

Still empty. Just saying it has a proper name


EDITED: Also there is now a template on the SOM/game pages with SOM games under From's games. sounds like kittens are being born, better get going

[dmpdesign]

I'll check all this out tomorrow, for now I really do need to go to bed, though I am curious, why KF episode IV? (other than the Star Wars nod)...wouldn't a new game be V?

[Holy_Diver]

I'll check all this out tomorrow, for now I really do need to go to bed, though I am curious, why KF episode IV? (other than the Star Wars nod)...wouldn't a new game be V?

I didn't set out to (it was pure coincidence) but it's going to kick off with a rewrite of IV, and then go V and VI. And then go back to I and II and III. And then maybe onto VII and VIII and IX, if all goes well. So that's the joke for Star Wars. Actually coming up with a name for the project was the scariest part. So the Star Wars bit was just the trick.

Unless From' does something that isn't a joke with KF its going to be "A New Hope" too in so far as everyone gets involved. Plus the Episode part officially dissociates itself from From's game. Anyway its just an official title. I don't think titles really matter if everyone and their mom is going to be making games 10 years from now.

PS: The wiki pages are literally there so anyone can steer the project. It's an important tool for collaborative projects

[Holy_Diver]

Here is a run down on the races. I submit that everything should fit neatly into one of these categories. I don't think there needs to be any others.

I will just copy it here...

Races

Most peoples and creatures of the world are of a mixed heritage even if they know better, but originally there were distinct races.

A verbal note on Dragons and Demons: Magic draws its power from unseen Dragons. Their lesser known counterparts are Demons—True Demons, never minding the monstrous mechanisations of Guyra—the demonic engines of logic antithetical to all that is magic. There are men born half-dragon possessing inborn familiarity of the elementary magics of Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth, owing to their dragon blood. And there are men born half-demon, commanding the "anti-magic" of Light flowing through their demon blood; and sometimes still there are men born with a foot in both of the worlds of Dragons and Demons.

Dragons

Dragons are the oldest of races. Their existence itself is ephemeral as they existed prior to existence itself. They come in four varieties attributable to the four magical elements each commanded by the gods Sylval, Elfos, Elwin, and Valad.

Fire dragons are the oldest and most feared dragon, hence their relative popularity among storytelling school children. But were the world ever to witness a fire dragon its doom would almost assuredly be sealed. Some of mankind's elite fire magi have claimed communion with these beasts, but if their claims are to believed, then their audience with the dragons took place in another world between the spaces of worlds.

Water dragons make their homes in the deep oceans. They are called leviathans, or sometimes mistakenly sea monsters. It is thought that none have dwelt in the world since Elfos deserted it eons ago. These dragons are flightless solitary creatures.

Wind dragons are known as drakes. Sometimes mistaken as wyverns. They are smaller and fly through the skies, making their homes on mountain tops. Sometimes in flocks. It is thought that these too left the world with Elwin when he with Elfos deserted the world.

Earth dragons are properly known as serpents. These sly dragons will often display majestic wings and ape other dragons. But do not be fooled by their trickery. They are flightless and independent, but known to make dubious alliances.

Elfkind

Elves are a primordial hominid race resembling taller paler and leaner men and women brought into being by Elfos and Elwin for the only purpose of acting as perfectly benevolent stewards of the world ecosystem, flora and fauna.

Giants and Dwarves

Valad, the smallest of the gods, created giants to construct large earthworks, so that the world would not be flat from end to end. Giants came in all sizes but man size and hibernate underground to this day, occasionally rising from their slumber to supper and assist heroes along their way. Larger giants hibernate for longer periods of time. Many believe that earthquakes indicate a giant sleeps in the vicinity.

Giants are the most peaceful of the races, but their clumsy scale often lends itself to unfortunate accidents. Giants believe that their sleep is best for everyone and love to dream more than anything in the world.

When Elfos and Elwin abandoned the world, in his lonesomeness Valad created the dwarf race. Elves would have nothing to do with him, so Valad in his questionable wisdom created dwarves to be the opposite of the elves. Boisterous and competitive but not warlike.

Do not be fooled by the name of Valad's late race. They are dwarfish, but only if you were to ask a giant. In short, Valad was unhappy with his giants. For they provided him little entertainment nor company during his stint as the lone god of the world. Even the smallest of their kind would nap for centuries. This simply would not do.

Mankind

Men are reckoned by many to be no more than an offshoot of one of the many more dominant mixed races. But their features and behavior is curious indeed. And their wars seemingly endless. In the earlier times children would be born with a curious affinity to Fire magic. Within educated circles it is generally agreed that the original men must surely have been the immaculate work of Sylval.

Although those who think so do try not to dwell upon the implications of such an apocalyptic god as Sylval having his hand in any race. There have been many tries to rid the races of mankind for the good of the world. Alas even gambling men know better to bet against the sunrise than to cast their lot with those odds.

Monsters & Demons

Monsters are an unfortunate side effect of Valad's attempt to remedy the mankind situation. In desperation Valad separated himself into the Earth dragons Seath and Guyra so that he would no longer be so lonely and so that the races would be able to rally around the dragons.

Because the magical half of Valad went to Seath and the logical half to Guyra, the disharmony that remained bent and twisted the fertile body of Valad. Where vegetation once had its origins in the Dragon Tree instead of a bed of monstrosities took its place.

Whether or not monsters deserve the respect of the other races is very seldom disputed. To call it racism would be incorrect. But monsters do possess personalities of their own, and some among the religious orders would even argue souls.

Demons are the product of Guyra's experimentation with monsters in order to create hybrids with properties of anti-magic sometimes called light, or law, considered holy by the men of more recent eras.

Guyra understood well his weakness to magic, and so created an army of his demons to serve as his protectors. The most successful experiments resulted in demons without weakness that would be forever loyal to Guyra.

[Holy_Diver]

I've added a description of these games...

http://en.swordofmoonlight.org/wiki/King%27s_Field_Episode_IV:_A_New_Hope

I would really appreciate it any feedback as to whether or not this sounds like an acceptable continuation of King's Field or not. It isn't necessarily a definitive timeline. It could be if you want it to be. But even to my mind, and I think I've read this somewhere, the universe is regularly recreated by Sylval, so presumably each cycle is different.

Still if From made these games would it feel off base? I don't know. They sound as good as anything to me, and in keeping with the twists and turns of the trilogy.

Here is the gist of it games overview wise.... I will need help to make these come together, so bear in mind if you are totally offended at least others will have to be complicate in my crimes


Planned trilogies

The projects begin with Episode 4, not unlike the Star Wars trilogies. From Software has not produced a new King's Field game since IV. The fourth game in the series is unrelated to the original trilogy, or the first three games. And not well received. Episode 4 was originally conceived of independent of IV, however it bore so many similarities, that it was decided that it can serve as a reworking of the fourth game, without any concessions in the slightest made to better overlap with IV. If there is any derivation between them it is purely subconscious, probably born of disappointments if so.

The decision to replace the fourth sequel in the new canon is also practical. If this is not done then the direct continuation in the form of subsequent trilogies would not be possible. The back story is consistent across the games admitting to exist within the canon. However each trilogy is separated by vast distances of time. And the affairs therein are entirely disconnected. Exact dates are to never be given, so that the timeline remains flexible, for the purpose of inserting new games and events at any point within the canon. The history and back story as presented in any given game is allowed to and even encouraged to be inaccurate or deceptive, but anything that plays out in the form of game play or cutscene adheres to canon or invites rejection.

IV, V, VI

IV follows Solomon, a young man with the innate talent for fire magic, while he explores a future Melanat aided by Meryl, a pure blooded elf fountain maiden of a few centuries native to Melanat by way of a clutch of an unbroken line of original elves making their home in a protected caldera at the summit of the larger of the twin landmasses making up the island.

The similarities to From Software's IV are a few. Solomon is cast out on a mission to save the fate of the land in the eyes of his people or perish doing so. He does not bear an idol to deliver to the underworld, but he is sent to use his fire magic to quiet the volcano of Melanat, and will need to venture into its underworld in order to do so. He will pull the Moonlight Sword from the roots of the Dragon Tree in a scene similar to how the sword is rekindled in IV. And he will discover a forest paradise in an unlikely place, and just as the elf aids the hero in IV amid such a paradise he is aided by Meryl, an elf and playable character that is not so different.

V follows the half-elf daughter of Solomon and Meryl, now king and queen of Elegria, as she crisscrosses the continent, once parched and now flooded by the events of IV, by boat, visiting the many highlands that remain above water. Just like her mother she is a consummate swimmer at home in the waters. Much of the game involves exploring underwater environments.

In IV Solomon was not only able to placate Melanat, but somehow summoned the negligent sea and sky gods Elfos and Elwin to return the rains and waters to the bone dry crevices of greater Elegria. In the presence of the two gods somewhere between the sun and the moon Solomon witnessed from outer space as the atmosphere of his world was repaired. In awe he saw that his home is a child's ball impossibly small, and what is more, the whole of Elegria as he could discern it, must have been no more than a spec on that spec of a ball.

VI follows a pure-elf nature boy born with a rare ability to venture far and wide across time and space (edited: not literally; by animal back) free from the ever present addiction to the poison water of Melanat, and its sister springs scattered across the wider continent, endured by his kind since time in memoriam. Like all pure-elves he shares the language of animals which he may hail from across great expanses by sending entreaties along the great winds. By a constant battery of animal cohorts he is able to cross the entire continent more swiftly than anyone of his era. His only stalwart ally is a falcon with a bird's-eye view who sees what he sees and vice versa.

We soon learn that the demons of long lost Guyra have made their home in a new world and have determined to make their way to far Elegria. It looks like the remnants of the flood will be no match as they make preparation to receive their demonic guests. One by one the still waterlogged tribes of Elegria are willingly enslaved until the moment of the final showdown arrives. The Moonlight Sword and newly recovered Dark Slayer are readied to be pitted against the foreign invaders. Sealed inside the seat of the continent, now surrounded Melanat, a desperate pact is made with a pair of old dragons.

I, II, III

This trilogy comes in the form of retcon of From Software's trilogy including reshaping Melanat in whatever form it takes in IV for II, and likewise for Verdite of VI for III.

VII, VIII, IX

In VII we learn that the tables have turned. Logic reigns supreme amok the far future world. Magic is an arcane memory. Demons are the masters of the high tech world. We follow a half-demon who is sympathetic to the mostly human underclass. Not that the humans did not deserve their fate, unleashing those fiendish dragons to do their bidding. If only they had listened to the demons who came in peace...

Well for now anyway they have it (the setting this time around is a lot like Vampire Hunter D. The most senior demons are not dissimilar from vampires.)


Throw a dog a bone

[Holy_Diver]

PS: To put some things into perspective with respect to the above information.

To begin with there is not enough room in this format to explain the details of the setup of each game, and only Ep. 4 has been thought out, and only in a very sweeping sense. Also Episode_IV:_A_New_Hope is the name of the entire project. It's like IV and its sequels, however far things get.

Finally, as for some of the more shocking aspects. What is a demon? Well its explained a few posts up. But Milia is a demon for example. And what is a vampire? Well its a kind of a demon. But the pure blooded elves that are mentioned. They are not vegetarians. They especially enjoy fish and fowl, usually raw. They don't do agriculture or animal husbandry, that's all human stuff...

And you see the PC in Ep. 6 is a pure-elf and he has a falcon companion. And they have intelligent conversations of sorts. He considers them to be equals. And doesn't pretend that elves are superior to animals, or animals are superior to plants. And he likes to dine on birds too. So what is a vampire? It's all fairly relative. And its safe to say that the vampires posited here are just run of the mill demons.

They are demon royalty or whatever, but we can't conclude they are any different from the elves that we can call monstrous cannibals if we wanted to. And I am sure there are carrion demons and fungi monsters, that live off of already dead things only. Peaceniks.


EDITED: I think the falcon will be in V too. It will be the eyes of Meryl (watching over her daughter) who is cast out for loving a man. But you will have a mostly passive relationship with it.

[HwitVlf]

From what I have heard, stories usually change quite a bit during the development process so I'm not sure it's wise to plot out minute details before a game goes into serious production. The reason for that is that ultimately the story has to get "bent" as needed to support interesting gameplay.

As far as whether the stories are worthy successors to KF, so much depends on how it is fleshed out in the final game.

The outline for 4 sounds intriguing, but I don't think the name Solomon is ideal. It brings to mind pictures of an old, bearded man or maybe a fat, short, Jewish jeweler wearing a loop and a yarmulke. I think a fantasy name that only hints at an English word is better. Actually, just plain "Solo" seems like a nice name.

In 5, swimming between islands seems like a neat gaming convention to explore. I'm not crazy about the main character being a royal. I think playing an "underdog" is always more interesting. Like in ICO where you start as a discarded cursed child who struggles to find his path. If he had started as a prince with a royal guard retinue, it would have changed the game's feel considerably.

In 6, the "ability to venture far and wide across time and space" seems too abstract and powerful. Again, a flawed and weak character who struggles against all odds seems more interesting than a time traveling teleporter. Having an animal companion is nice.

If you're intrigued with exploring a fully fleshed out story, maybe writing novels would be a good way to go? It might also be hard to find other game developers to jump onboard with your story visions. I once saw a post on a game-maker's forum where a person was suggesting a plotline for the developer's next game. The developer replied "stories are like nostrils, everyone has at least two and no one wants to pick someone else's". 

[Holy_Diver]

From what I have heard, stories usually change quite a bit during the development process so I'm not sure it's wise to plot out minute details before a game goes into serious production. The reason for that is that ultimately the story has to get "bent" as needed to support interesting gameplay.

Yes. But I think the game play in this case will be firmly established. And completely consistent in every game except for parts that might be unique to games like riding animals. As for the story these are just my best attempts. The project is an invitation for everyone to join the fray. If someone comes up with a better concept, even mid development of a game, then the direction will change. Better is better.

As far as whether the stories are worthy successors to KF, so much depends on how it is fleshed out in the final game.

My concern is what seems befitting KF. Everyone probably has their own ideas about what is KF and what isn't. In other words, what is the essence? Both in terms of setting and mood, and of course game play.

The outline for 4 sounds intriguing, but I don't think the name Solomon is ideal. It brings to mind pictures of an old, bearded man or maybe a fat, short, Jewish jeweler wearing a loop and a yarmulke. I think a fantasy name that only hints at an English word is better. Actually, just plain "Solo" seems like a nice name.

Well the best game is KF2. And the hero of that game is named Aleph. That's a Hebrew word. It's the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet no less. Solomon also comes from people descended from Aleph, who was a prince of Granitiki. I often hear this criticism of names. I don't think they are that important or much less the story should be compromised because a particular name might stir specific notions in someones head, or be mocked. Just as an example I was told once that a character could not be called Maxi, short of Maximilian, because it would make people think about tampons. It's the job of the game to change the way people think about words. Apple has made a bundle off its iPads. When people say iPad now, I doubt tampon is the first thing that springs to mind even though for a little while Apple did have to weather that verbal disagreement. Bottom line if a story can't have primacy for the people who enjoy it, its probably not worth whatever its printed on.

In 5, swimming between islands seems like a neat gaming convention to explore. I'm not crazy about the main character being a royal. I think playing an "underdog" is always more interesting. Like in ICO where you start as a discarded cursed child who struggles to find his path. If he had started as a prince with a royal guard retinue, it would have changed the game's feel considerably.

Well you will use boats to cross from island to island. Swimming doesn't seem super practical. It's going to be difficult to structure that one, or to figure out a plausible reason for island hopping. The game will focus a lot on swimming. Right now my working concept is when Melanat is flooded it opens access to some odd caverns. And while exploring in there a weakened Dark Slayer is discovered. Then somehow it leads the player to the four corners of Melanat where 4 magical crystals were sealed away long ago at the highest peaks. Each crystal recharges the Dark Slayer until it is fully restored. And in the next game the two swords are brought together and somehow that allows Seath and Guyra to be resurrected in the last instant. The princess will be a tom boy, the queen is a tom boy too, and the king is an unlikely hero, they are only aspirational royalty because the numbers of the human race at this time are next to non-existent and the world itself is just recovering from a variable apocalypse. She might not even accept the title of princess, and will never become queen either way. In V she'd be an explorer and concerned for the well being of the peoples of the the highlands plain and simple.

If the falcon from V would appear in VI it would mean that not too much time could pass, just a decade or so or less between each game, like in the trilogy. Solomon probably would be a bearded man by the time of the 3rd game. He could even reappear in the next trilogy if Guyra took over his body or something to walk among men as a mystery immortal. Like Jean in KF3.

In 6, the "ability to venture far and wide across time and space" seems too abstract and powerful. Again, a flawed and weak character who struggles against all odds seems more interesting than a time traveling teleporter. Having an animal companion is nice.

He can't move across time and space literally. It just feels that way because normally his people cannot venture far from the poison waters, like in KF2. He moves far and wide by riding animals like horses. So he is like the Paul Revere pony express more or less, which in a medieval setting (and even a contemporary RPG) really does feel like flying. And he can fly by seeing what his falcon sees and guiding it were to go more or less telepathically.

Each game is setup as an incremental challenge. By this third game we have a lot to cope with. Moving across the entire continent basically. But I think still there will be content zones and once you move too far away the view will zoom out to an overworld map, kind of blending things along the way. From there you pick your destination and are probably subject to a time limit.

If you're intrigued with exploring a fully fleshed out story, maybe writing novels would be a good way to go? It might also be hard to find other game developers to jump onboard with your story visions. I once saw a post on a game-maker's forum where a person was suggesting a plotline for the developer's next game. The developer replied "stories are like nostrils, everyone has at least two and no one wants to pick someone else's".

It's true. I am the programmer. I won't be writing a damn thing. There will have to writers for that. Anyone who wants to can do a basic prototype. But at some point someone with writing chops will have to jump on the bandwagon.

I am really not impressed by people making a game all by themselves. I think eventually making a game will be mostly like writing books. In other words there will come a time where corporations will no longer be in that business. Corporations will look for good games like good books to option for big budget adaptations (which may or may not be worthy of the source material just like with movies)

But it will be a long time before we get there, and I am not convinced that all you need to be is a writer to make a good game given the game making equivalent of pencil and paper. You have a lot more things to deal with. And games are not as personal as books. Plus they are interactive. If there is only two people involved its still the writer and the player pulling an equal load 

EDITED: And even still I think part of the weakness in the corporate/retail model is it is inherently exclusive. People don't get to have a say in the process and feel left out of it, passive. Like I say games are not so personal as books often are. And every player plays it differently. So that's all the more reason to make it an inclusive collaborative process.

PS: As for Solo vs. Solomon. That seems like a Nintendo like move to me. Like I say I don't know what is and isn't KF for everyone. But part of it to me is KF is more mature. Something that looks like Legend of Zelda is not likely going to fly even if its otherwise a good idea. If you read the thread linked too in the first post, there is a basis for using Solomon. Part of it is it sounds like solo-man, and part of it is the legendary Solomon is the quintessential sorcerer King. And there is a magic field system. So built into a rebirth of KF you can literally read that into King's Field. Either way its a good name.

The real king is the player of course. But starting the first game out with an explicit reference just helps to lay that bare. I didn't search for a justification or what King's Field means. It just came out that way totally coincidentally on both counts. Just read the forums, everything is there.

[Holy_Diver]

Also, just for the record, I think the better short name for Solomon would be Sol

PS: It's pronounced like Saw, so it doesn't sound like solo, it just looks like it. So Solo would sound like Sala more or less (I know everyone probably knows this, but just reminding everyone because it only just occurred to me)