Formerly: The Remix DoM Project!?! Now general KF discourse.

[dmpdesign]

Well lets define the dark slayer a bit here.

It is termed dark slayer because it was forged from the dark crystal.

The dark crystal is defined as a holy relic the elves kept because it held power granted them by Seath....who at that time in the king's field lore was presumed to be holy as well.

So to me that would mean that dark slayer is called that because it was either made of this dark (yet holy) crystal, or because it is the 'slayer of darkness' , since the material was gifted to the elves by seath to destroy guyra, the dark dragon.

I don't quite think dark and light are entirely analogous to holy and unholy, which is why I dont like that translation in SoM (eventhough it may be correct).  To me light and dark are elements of magic moreso than a religious belief.

As far as alexander goes, other than maybe Lyle, I would say he is the purest hero of the series as he remaiend uncorruptable to his death.

[Holy_Diver]

I'm pretty sure that the Dark Slayer and Moonlight Sword are so named ambiguously so that they can swing either way. Their only constant is their opposite to each other. I think KF2's story is the classic, things are not really as they seem line. I think Seath is a Dark God and Geara is Light God in KF2 and KF3 (and presumably KF1) ...the whole thing is, Geara is the black dragon (forest dragon) of KF1. The only question is one of colour, like does black = dark, and white = light... I think that is meaningless. But "holy" (goodness) does equal light. You could say that Geara is black because he absorbs light, and Seath reflects (rejects) it. Geara's power goes into the Moonlight, which reflects his light (like the moon) and Seath's dark energy is channeled into the Dark Slayer. I think it's technically possible for the two deities to flip sides though. But that has never happened in the games I think.... or maybe they had in the past. I think most likely the colours don't matter. But I think Geara is always black, and Seath is always white.

PS: I imagine the dark/light elves are a microcosm of this theme. The light elves were probably a very high and mighty oppressive society. Steeped in morality but rotten at the core. Primarily though I think their name just derived from their surface existence. Whereas the dark elves were probably egalitarian, unorganized, but decent to one another as a society... most likely oppressed by the light elves. Again their name comes from living within the island. My memory is muddy, but I think Seath was the light elves icon, and the dark elves revered Geara.

PPS: WRONG THREAD (please don't expect me to stay on topic)

[Holy_Diver]

On DoM "remix" ...I'm completely rearranging the hell out of this game

I hope that brings you happiness Tom. And I hope you won't be pissed to find everything completely switcheroo'd.

I'm not even sure where I could start hinting at some the stuff I'm up to...

Like one odd thing I've done out of left field... is I've decided that instead of Fire vs. Ice, and Earth vs. Wind... it's going to be Fire vs. Wind, and Earth vs. Water. I've taken out any reference to Ice for now, because I consider that a combination of Water and Wind (which I think later KF games do as well)

Like I'm using most of the Ice models for Earth equipment instead. It's going to be really different...

[dmpdesign]

If your only experience was with the japanese versions, then I can assume that accounts for some of the different angles you are providing with what youre saying.

I am no expert of the From Software version of KF2 and 3, and from what I have been told, the story line in them was a bit more generic.  From what I understand the translation to the english version was more of a retelling , using the same names and such, but really taking a much more in depth view of the characters, lore and history...which is one main reason John's translation of KF1 really doesnt make any sense whatsoever when you play through KF2 and 3 in the US.

KF1 (as far as KF2 and 3 are concerned) has literally no ties story wise other than john alfred and the moonlight sword.

The plot and story behind KF1 is pretty horrible, and quite disjointed.  On several occassions the king in verdite at that time is referred to as your brother, as your father, as the brother of the dark magician and no relation to you at all.

The forest dragon and the fairy in KF1, though they may be analogous to guyra, are not the same beings.  In fact, the story of KF2 all but dismisses the entire creation of the moonlight sword as it was shown in KF1.  Its almost as if they liked the concept they introduced in KF1 but not the execution.

In fact, check out kings-field.com and read the KF history section...it is a snippit from an official Kings Field 3 book that basically rewrites the events of KF1 to make it fit much better with the american telling of 2 and 3.  In my personal opinion I am glad they did away with the events of the sword from the KF1 game (again just my opinion) as I feel that game as a whole is rather weak story wise.

If what I am saying is true, and I have a good hunch it is, you would probably benefit greatly from playing the KF2 and KF3 US versions instead of the japanese ones.  I believe the folks from ascii (agetec) did a really good job rewriting the world a bit to be more interesting, and more complete.

DD will follow the US concepts, so it may be foreign to you.  Hopefully you like it, but I deifinitely urge you to give the US games a try, if for no other reason than to at least see if they are indeed different.

[HwitVlf]

I think most of the plot incongruity comes from 'semi-official' made up add on stories that appeared in the strategy guides. I don't think Agetec cared what they put in the guides and they contradict the KF games and even sometimes even contradict themselves.

If you ignore the guide stories, the games themselves make pretty good sense and have congruity. All three KF games say that the Moonlight Sword was made by Guyra and given to the Forester family in ancient times. It was passed down to Hauser and finally John got it off his father's grave in KFJ.  That's why Guyra repaired it and empowered it.

The 'Forest Dragon' is just what Guyra is called in an ancient legend where he reportedly saved Verdite. It is inferred that the member of the Forester family who was given the Moonlight Sword in ancient times might have been the actual hero who saved Verdite 'in Guyra's name'. By the beginning of KFJ, Guyra is not physically 'embodied', and in later KFs the Forest Dragon is called 'Guyra's projection who guards the place where he hopes to be reborn'. Myria and the other fairies are Guyra's creation and servants.

I don't think Guyra or Seath are inherently evil, they are just opposing forces.

Of interest, the word I translated as 'holy' is literally 'saint' in Japanese which is usually translated as holy in games. It's a different word than 'light' which Japanese seem to equate with power/force rather than holiness.


To clear up some plot confusion for KFJap.

There were three kings in the game.

Randalf VIII-
He's the guy who teaches you fire magic. He was poisoned to death by his brother (Reinhartd II) and buried on the 3rd floor of the cemetery. His brother's son (Reinhardt III) then attempted to resurrect Randalf as an undead servant, but the resurrected Ransdalf's magic was too strong to control so the nephew sealed him in place.

Reinhardt II-
Killed his brother Randalf to become king. The Black Knight and Magician were his bodyguards. Was turned to stone by his son.

Reinhardt III- Son of Reinhardt II, he's the current king at the time of the story. A talented earth magician who was able to raise the dead. He's the boss you fight at the end of the game.

John Alfred was only distantly related to the kings through his mother who was a member of the royal family. John Alfred's father, Hauser, was captain of Reinhardt III's bodyguard.

As a side note, I've collected several notes on how to improve the KFJ translation and plan to update the patch someday; if anyone has any ideas on how to improve the translation or clear up confusions, let me know! :)

[dmpdesign]

Just to be clear, I never blamed your translation for the story being weird...I have faith what you put in there was accurate ;)

Here is an example of some odd information in the game though.

The last boss's area...the statue just before you enter the last room.  I cant remember if the statue reads king reinhardt and the magician says its your father, or if reading the statue says its your father and the magician says its reinhardt, but either way, it doesnt make sense.

From what I understand, hauser forester (your dad) died fighting a black knight?  So I am assuming the statue should be the king.

Double check me on that though.

I am going to have to recheck this whole moonlight made by guyra thing though, I would like to know where in KF1 US (KF2) you ever get that piece of information?  Using the truth glass on guyra or having marilyn assess the moonlight sword never reveals that information.

Im not refuting your guys idea that the intention of the 'forest dragon' and guyra are to be the same dragon, I just think since they look very different and (really in KF1 US guyra is very much evil, where as in KF1 japan the forest dragon is seen as some sort of savior) that it doesnt make sense for them to be the same.

[Holy_Diver]

It would be interesting I think to properly translate KF2 and KF3 after KF1. If my plate wasn't already so full I'd try to help with a project like that.

In my experience after playing thru 10 Armored Core games with plots way more ambiguous and disjointed than KF. Fromsoftware likes to make games where the players final action brings ruin upon their world... they probably make more games (in the core series) that way than not. Again, I've no technical authority... just intuition, given my many years removed from the KF games, whose atmosphere I always enjoyed but plot more or less dismissed, I'd hazard to guess that the ruin/curse upon the kingdom of KF3 was a direct result of Alf's folly in KF2. Hence the hidden ending, where Lyle rectifies Alf's legacy and the true nature of Seath is revealed (as the final "true" KF3 end boss)

KF2 is intentionally confusing and complex... which is admirable, as it further immerses the player by further expanding upon the theme of subjectivity. But KF3 mostly brings closure to everything, and more or less ties up the Geara/Seath taoist (it really is just thinly veiled taoism) saga.

Notes: Alf (presumably derived from Alfred) is called Alexander in the US version if anyone is confused. I think the site would be much better off if it would try to be true to the original content. English localizations are really just bastardizations (however good/profitable they are) at the end of the day.

The only reason I connect Holy (no distinction from "saintly" in Japanese) with light, is all the instances of stuff like Light Needle, etc.

PS: Doesn't this forum have a SPLIT tool in the admins toolbox?

[HwitVlf]

I think I get where your confusion happened. The end boss is not the Magician but is actually King Reinhardt III who transformed himself into a powerful monster by tapping into a 'door to darkness' which had been uncovered during the excavation of the ancient Dragon Shrine (aka Royal Cemetery). The statue near him is his father, King Reinhardt II who he has turned to stone. He says:
'If you came to defeat my father, you missed your chance. He's the one who's stone over there.'

But he also mentions John Alfred's father saying:
'I'll be happy to send you to the grave with your father.  Then I will use you as my servant some time.'

Maybe I'll replace one of the 'father' references with a proper noun to clarify in the update. I also made a huge mistake and accidentally omitted the end boss' first sentence which says, 'I am King Reinhardt III.' That's definitely going to be changed in the updated patch.

As far as where I get the idea that Guyra made the Moonlight Sword- it's been awhile since I played through the actual KF US games and checked all the descriptions/dialogue. Most of my knowledge comes from reading through the text panels which I extracted directly from the game disk. When I think about it, it's possible that Agetec blocked some of the text so that it wouldn't appear in-game, but I definitely remember seeing some of them.

Here are the actual text panels:

FROM KF (USA):










FROM KF2 (USA):







Of interest, the healing fountain in KF2 is the same Dragon Fountain from KFJ:


You may already know, but there's a character description page for KFJ here that might explain some things:
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/kingsfield/characters.html#5

[Holy_Diver]

^In my experience, this text looks like a total "winging it" job. Which is actually what you get with at least 80% of game localizations to some degree, especially back during this period, when RPGs were considered text heavy, and not considered profitable in the US market. Ie. there is no real translation going on... just trying to match text with the pictures and trials the player is experiencing.

It just smells like the localizers were given a lot of difficult scenarios to match with text, and did the best they could, without actually investing in real translation (which can cost a fortune)

edited: I have no real idea until I commit to a KF2 playthru, but there is good description of most of the KF characters in wikipedia... probably because the Japanese story itself is difficult to unravel:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%AD%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%83%89

PS: I'd be more interested to see all the text from the original side by side with the replacement text in the ASCII game.

[Hguols]

I haven't had a pancake in a long time.  I think I'll have a pancake.