Sword of Moonlight Forum
Game Making Theory => General Theory Discussions => Topic started by: Holy_Diver on June 21, 2013, 07:53:03 pm
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There was no room for a question mark in the subject.
I get some very different impressions from people talking about "mods" and I wonder what they are. Could any game with mod tools be called a game development platform? Are mods somehow illegitimate? What makes something a mod and not a game?
Obviously not all games are super mod friendly. And probably mod enthusiasts circumvent official tools provided by developers.
There seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for modding games. I wonder if it detracts from what could be a vibrant scene of DIY game makers. Or if there is no real distinction to be made there. Maybe at the end of the day the only stigma for modders is their attachment to a commercial product with a limited window for support. At least until it is made opensource (which has happened with a number of games, Id always releases its sources.)
Disclaimer: I pose the question because its something I know nothing about. It's probably been ~20yrs since I've messed with anything that looks like modding. Which is probably the last time I really played a PC game for that matter. GoG.com has been having a sell this week. I've purchased a few games, Deus Ex, Witcher 2, and ArmaII (DayZ) with the intention of getting around to playing them. The Witcher team seems like a good group. When the game was on sell for less than 10$ I thought I'd get it just because their press is so good. I think their mod tools are almost a free development platform to boot.
Just yesterday (the next day) this (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/125257-Witcher-3-Dev-Creates-Semi-Official-Witcher-2-Mod) came out. It seems like an awfully varied list of features for a "mod". I'd characterize that as a remix. And DayZ is just one big mod. I assume my computers can play these games, but I guess I'll find out sooner or later. I wouldn't be surprised if I end up buying a new computer before I can make time in my schedule to try to play these. Deus Ex recently got a fan expansion too, and I think there are mods to pretty up its graphics. Probably the same way Ex cleans up SOM's.
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Mods are modifications to an existing game, while SoM is a set of game making tools. It's basically as simple as that.
If you took a King's Field game and started changing things about it, that would be a mod. If you use SoM to create something, you're making a brand new game.
Generally, you would need to own the existing game to play a mod. If the mod does not require you to own the existing game, it is most likely illegally including and distributing the files from the original game upon which it is based, since it can not be run without them.
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I've read on RPG maker forums that the "bottom fell out" of the game making market years back. I highly suspect that it coincided with it becoming standard practice for companies to release level editors with their games. For a timeline, I think Morrowind was one of the first big games that included a comprehensive editor.
Easily 50% of the PC games I've played recently come with some sort of official editing kit, and popular games usually have quite a few unofficial editing techniques as well. Mods range from a simple texture change in the regular game to completely new addon games. They are still processed through the same engine though, so they come out something like alternate versions of the "mother" game. Our very own Verdite played a art in making an amazing mod for Mount and Blade called Brythenwalda.
Game making and modding definitely tap into the same creative root, but modding has the allure of being attached to the fanbase of the original game. And they can be as big or small as you want while still being playable by working with the original game. Game makers support modding because it expands their games through no effort of their own, and fosters long enduring community chatter about their prduct.
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Mods are modifications to an existing game, while SoM is a set of game making tools. It's basically as simple as that.
If you took a King's Field game and started changing things about it, that would be a mod. If you use SoM to create something, you're making a brand new game.
Generally, you would need to own the existing game to play a mod. If the mod does not require you to own the existing game, it is most likely illegally including and distributing the files from the original game upon which it is based, since it can not be run without them.
Yes. I suppose the official distinction for a "mod" is you must have the original game to use it. SOM lets you make standalone games. But I don't think that will be used very much at some point because standalone games require so much bloat. They make perfect sense on a CD but it would be better I think if the standard way to play a SOM game is to start by installing SOM.
Anyway at that point, the distinction is fuzzier. You can play a standalone game if you really must. But most people might see it as being a mod system for a free game. I think you could install SOM just the data folder without the tools. But the tools probably wouldn't amount to enough to warrant the added complexity.
But yeah, that seems like a good technical answer. But I wonder if there is something to be said about the spirit of the matter.
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I've read on RPG maker forums that the "bottom fell out" of the game making market years back. I highly suspect that it coincided with it becoming standard practice for companies to release level editors with their games. For a timeline, I think Morrowind was one of the first big games that included a comprehensive editor.
Easily 50% of the PC games I've played recently come with some sort of official editing kit, and popular games usually have quite a few unofficial editing techniques as well. Mods range from a simple texture change in the regular game to completely new addon games. They are still processed through the same engine though, so they come out something like alternate versions of the "mother" game. Our very own Verdite played a art in making an amazing mod for Mount and Blade called Brythenwalda.
Game making and modding definitely tap into the same creative root, but modding has the allure of being attached to the fanbase of the original game. And they can be as big or small as you want while still being playable by working with the original game. Game makers support modding because it expands their games through no effort of their own, and fosters long enduring community chatter about their prduct.
Modding has been around since I was a kid. I just haven't followed its development. I disagree though that modding negatively impacted "game making" software. It's just speculation. But modding was there before and was still there after. I think "game making" stopped because it was not commercially viable.
The only way game making could be commercially viable would be to turn it into a mod system. Which is to say the players would have to buy into the commercial product too. You also have weird things like RPG Maker 3 I think, that looks pretty good, lets you make 3D RPGs like SOM more or less, turn/party based RPGs but the esthetic is still quite nice. But it was a PS2 exclusive. And there was no way for mere mortals to share games. So the only person who would get to play these console game making games is the makers themselves and maybe their siblings.
EDITED: I only know about RPG Maker 3 because it recently turned up in the PSN store. And ironically even though there is no official support for sharing games, dedicated fans did find ways to do so with the PS2. But with the PSN it seems more likely that there is no way to do that.
I kind of think the spirit of modding versus game making might have something to do with continued support. Since a mod is attached to a disposable piece of software that is already decided that it will never grow in any fundamental way. But maybe that is just more to do with the way companies approach games as disposable churn...
Which is something I've never been able to figure out. Because when I finish programming something. I feel like. Great! I'll never have to do that again as long as I live. But game companies think, hey, can't wait until we are reinventing this wheel 3yrs down the road.
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coincided with it becoming standard practice for companies to release level editors
Modding has been around since I was a kid. I just haven't followed its development. I disagree though that modding negatively impacted "game making" software. It's just speculation. But modding was there before and was still there after. I think "game making" stopped because it was not commercially viable.
I didn't claim mods had a negative effect on game making. I said standard issue mod-making kits have reduced peoples focus on making freestanding homebrew type games. I actually have a significant amount of evidence to support what I'm saying, but I won't take the time to explain. It's not that I am busy. I just have other things to attend to.
As far as the question in your topic: SoM is a mod. The only difference is the label people may slap on it. Plenty of "mods" created totally unique games. And in spite of what you have posted in several places, SoM's user agreement specifically prohibits distribution or reverse engineering of SoM or its components. I'm the one who sent you the ULA text where it said so, so I'm surprised you missed that. The exe's also have built in copy protection and it violates US federal law to bypass that.
Official mod kits often let you remove the entire original game and make something completely new just like SoM. So SoM is a mod and many mod-kits are game making engines if you want to call them that. Such distinctions are just meaningless labels to me. It's like discussing what to call the type of brush you used to paint a picture.
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coincided with it becoming standard practice for companies to release level editors
Modding has been around since I was a kid. I just haven't followed its development. I disagree though that modding negatively impacted "game making" software. It's just speculation. But modding was there before and was still there after. I think "game making" stopped because it was not commercially viable.
I didn't claim mods had a negative effect on game making. I said standard issue mod-making kits have reduced peoples focus on making freestanding homebrew type games.
Well I took "bottom fell out" to mean the industry lost interest because they weren't making money. So I gave you reasons why they weren't making money. Namely that there is no way to make money with this kind of a product. The companies that did make these products really didn't think things through. In the case of SOM maybe it was more of a humanitarian gesture, or a bid for immortality, or maybe its makers just thought they'd do one last thing with all of the software they had lying around to see if it wouldn't make more money than was sunk into it. Which would've been only conceivable because the process of making SOM must have been a slapdash port of years of experience making KF games.
I actually have a significant amount of evidence to support what I'm saying, but I won't take the time to explain. It's not that I am busy. I just have other things to attend to.
I agree that mod tools detract from interest in making standalone game tools. Just like sites like sites like Facebook detract from interest in making informative independent websites. That is the major concern expressed in the top post. So it did not occur to me you were making the same point again as if you didn't read the top post.
As far as the question in your topic: SoM is a mod. The only difference is the label people may slap on it. Plenty of "mods" created totally unique games. And in spite of what you have posted in several places, SoM's user agreement specifically prohibits distribution or reverse engineering of SoM or its components. I'm the one who sent you the ULA text where it said so, so I'm surprised you missed that. The exe's also have built in copy protection and it violates US federal law to bypass that.
To the contrary. I always stress this point. It's the only restriction placed. However I don't think it says "reverse engineering". It specifically says disassembly. Which is boiler plate for all software since that breaks the parameters of the copyright. Coffee (a Japanese SOM user) wrote to From Software and received an encouraging reply saying that reverse engineering is fine. Deciphering file formats has always been legal as far as I know. And I suspect if From was asked about dissasembly for the same purposes the reply would be the same. Emulation is also legal. So disassembly done for no other reason than to extend a product is equivalent to emulating the product with extensions.
Official mod kits often let you remove the entire original game and make something completely new just like SoM. So SoM is a mod and many mod-kits are game making engines if you want to call them that. Such distinctions are just meaningless labels to me. It's like discussing what to call the type of brush you used to paint a picture.
But words have meaning. SOM is closer to a game platform in my mind. It was developed and released as such. So that's patently obvious. The only extent to which you could liken it to a mod would be where it might place limitations on what you can do game mechanics wise. If it was more of a traditional graphics engine I don't think that would be good for users. It's a "game maker" so for that reason its slightly closer to a mod. But we can't just go around calling everything a mod. You might be able to call some especially open ended mod-kits game maker kits. But I don't think it works both ways.
But this thread is not supposed to be about definitions. I made it just to see if I couldn't gleam some insight into how SOM stacks up against alternatives namely including mods. Like one could imagine that if there was a game to end all games, and it had a very rich mod-kit. Then why make anymore games in that genre when new games can just be made with its mod kit for ever more?
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I think modding is far more appealing to folks for several reasons -
1 - its much less work to mod an existing game than to try to create one...many folks may have an art talent, or a scripting talent etc that they can 'add' to an existing game...but most folks don't posses the skills to make up an entire development 'team'.
2 - fanbase and ego. I would guess most folks want to be recognized for their work, modding can be sort of competitive. if fan A mods a game and fan B makes a different/better mod it boosts their ego. working on a mod pretty much guarantees you will get downloads, working on a game from scratch could have quite a lackluster result and audience penetration.
3 - modding typically relies on community support, meaning most mods are produced to provide a feature to a game that a large portion of fans request or pine for. this ties in with point number 2, in that you can get credit for being everyone's hero, and you don't really have to come up with many ideas yourself...just have the skill to pull it off, such as a retexture pack for a game etc.
4 - distribution. with Steam adding the community workshops for popular games, the modding fans have a great place to distribute their mods..when you create your own game, you have to build your own means to get the word out and find hosting etc.
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"I've read on RPG maker forums that the "bottom fell out" of the game making market years back."
I don't know what is truth vs made up stuff, but I can tell you this, unless you think you have a loyal fanbase to draw on (such as King's Field is to SOM) why would you ever try to create a game making tool these days?
First of all, if you do, you are limiting the end user in selling that product, which most indie game developers would like to do so they don't have to get a day job ;)
Secondly, there are a variety of professional grade tools already available for that industry (Unreal, Unity etc etc), ones that have been worked on for years and more or less perfected to the point that trying to create something new would just waste your time.
Thirdly, the scope of game making has just exponentially climbed in the last few generations of systems. Triple A titles that once took a small team to produce now require hundreds of employees, each specialized to pull off graphics, sound and playability that appeals to the modern market. RPG Maker and SOM have a wonderful niche following, but to be fair they are miles away from anything that would sell on modern consoles or PC...at least enough to make money on.
Lastly, just like every other consumer product sold to you, a very small number of companies runs the rest of the game studios we like. Just as a consumer goods company like Kraft, or Proctor and Gamble own 1/3 of all the companies that produce food or home necessities, video game super powers like electronic arts have bought up hundreds of smaller studio names to produce their games. Why would they want to take power away from their devs and hand it to the common man? They don't...what they do instead is partner with companies like Sony and Microsoft to push out indie development into the far corners of their marketplace where no one can find them :P
The VG industry is no different than any other, its been chopped up and bought out by a select few, and you will play their games or be bored searching for something else :P
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RPG Maker and SOM have a wonderful niche following, but to be fair they are miles away from anything that would sell on modern consoles or PC...at least enough to make money on.
I don't know about RPG Maker, but SOM has no following. But neither is SOM miles away. Making a better product than these tinpot companies isn't as difficult as you think. They don't even have an upper hand technologically. Never mind the well known utter rubbishness of their games.
Also the likes of Unreal and Unity are far from perfected. They have some basic graphics capabilities. And a lot of noise. But they don't help people make good games. So they have a long way to go.
The audience for good anything is always a very small slice of humanity. If every movie set out to woo the masses they'd all be drivel wouldn't they. But you can have mainstream crossover success to a point. Look at the Ico games. The only thing that even looks remotely like that is King's Field 4. Which is just a stones throw away from SOM. Which could easily have crossover appeal with the Dark Souls legions for instant notoriety.
SOM could easily be an overnight success story. If I have my way it will be video games 2.0. It will be like 4D games.
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Let me clarify...when I refer to SOM I am meaning as it was produced and supported by the parent company.
Additionally, you are correct, perfected was a poor choice of words to use in regards to those platforms, what I should have said is that they both deliver a product that has a much wider usability and application (2D, 3D, rpg/fps/shmup/platformer/puzzle/strategy etc), along with a very large community and developer base to offer support and customization.
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Let me clarify...when I refer to SOM I am meaning as it was produced and supported by the parent company.
Additionally, you are correct, perfected was a poor choice of words to use in regards to those platforms, what I should have said is that they both deliver a product that has a much wider usability and application (2D, 3D, rpg/fps/shmup/platformer/puzzle/strategy etc), along with a very large community and developer base to offer support and customization.
I don't know the ins and outs. But I think the claim to application is just that these are graphics engines and not game development platforms. I think SOM will eventually be able to address any game that has characters. You will probably be able to make Tetris with it, but I don't think it should spread so thin that that would be a natural fit. But it will only do so by gradually integrating those formats into a framework that forces the users hand into making good games.
I want to stress the word good. Because I don't see a whole lot of goodness coming of all of these platforms. So they must be doing something wrong. Even now Verdite's Rathmor plays better than any first person game I've played in years. Honestly better than any first person game I've ever played. Anyway. It is telling that SOM, at this early stage, can so easily do so much better than all of the might and many efforts of the video game industry.
At the end of the day someone just has to sit down and make the better game. Throwing all of the money in the world at that problem doesn't make it materialize. The problem remains. Someone still has to make that better game. And all truth be told, mo' money mo' problems.
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ya know, I have to agree 100% on that point.... One of the things I love about SOM is that, it makes 1st person with a classic feel and look that has been lost by modern more fancy engines..
Good example.... Final Fantasy II or (IV in japan) was made by like 20 something, nerdy dudes in Japan on modified commadore 64's, with love and passion.... Great RPG..... This year for IOS and Android Square remade it, like they did for Final Fantasy III and granted it looks good. Plays good and is an awesome reboot. It probably took 2/3 of Japan to make this thing. But I still love going through the class SNES title in all it's 16 bit glory..Who knows maybe some will say the same about mine, I doubt it, The first Swordquest games were hard as S*%T, confusing and random and had sucky graphics :-) .............. Thats all. Sorry if that was off topic............................. ML
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That FF4 remake has been around for a long time. It was probably on one of Nintendo's portables originally.
I just want to be clear. When I said Rathmor plays better. What I really meant to say is Ex plays better. And by play I mean the 3D controls are better than any game on the market. That's not a bid for nostalgia. It's literally a better game, even at this early stage of development.
Rathmor could easily be the game of the year. Not because Verdite is so great, but because the competition is so pathetic. That's what happens to the competition when it has gone so long without any competition.
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I don't know if anyone has considered, but a SoM-like platform could actually be made using an engine like Unity. All it would take is to make a game exe core that reads external configuration files to decide the particulars of how it plays. That would certainly be easier than trying to squish SoM into mimicking a modern game engine. Unity games are far more commercially viable anything SoM will ever be and there's already a whole team of people working to make games cross-platform and fix any bugs that pop up.
To me, SoM had two things going for it, it made 1st person games, and it was considerable easier to use than any other 3D rpg makers on the market. The more complexity that gets added to SoM, the more it just becomes a pale version of other engines already on the market. It was just for making fun fan- games. SoM will never make commercially viable games simply because no one in their right mind would make a game they intended to sell on an engine which they technically have no right to distribute. As long as a game has one scrap of SoM's game.exe in it, it will never be viable to sell. And if game.exe is eventually cut out of the equation, then why on earth would you start building around SoM in the first place?
Game engines are a trade off between ease of use and complexity of feature set. Most amateurs would pick ease of use, whereas pros look for the advanced feature sets. I don't think an engine can or should try to appeal to both classes. You just end up being a mediocre product for both.
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I don't know if anyone has considered, but a SoM-like platform could actually be made using an engine like Unity. All it would take is to make a game exe core that reads external configuration files to decide the particulars of how it plays. That would certainly be easier than trying to squish SoM into mimicking a modern game engine. Unity games are far more commercially viable anything SoM will ever be and there's already a whole team of people working to make games cross-platform and fix any bugs that pop up.
To me, SoM had two things going for it, it made 1st person games, and it was considerable easier to use than any other 3D rpg makers on the market. The more complexity that gets added to SoM, the more it just becomes a pale version of other engines already on the market. It was just for making fun fan- games. SoM will never make commercially viable games simply because no one in their right mind would make a game they intended to sell on an engine which they technically have no right to distribute. As long as a game has one scrap of SoM's game.exe in it, it will never be viable to sell. And if game.exe is eventually cut out of the equation, then why on earth would you start building around SoM in the first place?
Except you'd tie your product to Unity. Yuck. And since when can you not sell you game with SOM's game.exe file?
A SOM game isn't the exe file. It's the files that make up the game. We support the exe because it's like the soul of SOM. You use it for benchmarking. But it won't be necessary. SOM is going to be around for hundreds of years. Dependence on the original runtimes will probably not even be there on the first day that SOM becomes a totally viable platform.
People working with SOM now are just getting ahead of the curb.
Game engines are a trade off between ease of use and complexity of feature set. Most amateurs would pick ease of use, whereas pros look for the advanced feature sets. I don't think an engine can or should try to appeal to both classes. You just end up being a mediocre product for both.
The truth is no one has a clue what they are doing. Video games vs. movies is pre talkies days. Until some standards emerge we got nothing.
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That FF4 remake has been around for a long time. It was probably on one of Nintendo's portables originally.
not the gameboy advance title, I meant this one
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.square_enix.android_googleplay.FFIV_GP&feature=search_result#?t=W10.
Best 15 bucks I spent in some time however, the 16 bit version still is the best..... I will probably never go through this new version ever again , in fact I have already deleted it since completing it. The SNES version I will most certainly play again, and again :) .............................ML
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And since when can you not sell you game with SOM's game.exe file?
You know as well as I do. You just aren't being honest to yourself.
SoM's EULA
"By installing, copying, or the use of the software, you accept to be bound by the terms and conditions of this Agreement... This license agreement grants the following rights to customers. You may install and use Software on one computer per copy of the software. Users of networks may store or install this software across an internal network, but you must obtain a special license for each computer where the software is distributed or used... Restrictions: You may not reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble this software product, nor separate components of this software which is licensed as a single product. You can not separate components for use on more than one computer. You may not loan, rent or lease the software product. You may not duplicate the manual that comes with the software product." :fush:
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And since when can you not sell you game with SOM's game.exe file?
You know as well as I do. You just aren't being honest to yourself.
SoM's EULA
"By installing, copying, or the use of the software, you accept to be bound by the terms and conditions of this Agreement... This license agreement grants the following rights to customers. You may install and use Software on one computer per copy of the software. Users of networks may store or install this software across an internal network, but you must obtain a special license for each computer where the software is distributed or used... Restrictions: You may not reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble this software product, nor separate components of this software which is licensed as a single product. You can not separate components for use on more than one computer. You may not loan, rent or lease the software product. You may not duplicate the manual that comes with the software product." :fush:
And where does that say you cannot distribute your King's Field game? Plus this is a translation. It doesn't say anything about not selling your game either. Selling fan mad stuff is common in Japan. Never mind this is the same disclaimer you'll find on every single piece of software. It isn't a document outlining what you can do with the games you make with SOM. If you own a copy of SOM you can make a game and distribute it. And From says this contract is only enforceable for Japanese residents. Foreigners enjoy no restrictions. And are not forbidden to own a copy of SOM by way of a Japanese reseller.
The game.exe file is part of the runtime. It isn't part of SOM. Not being honest huh?
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That FF4 remake has been around for a long time. It was probably on one of Nintendo's portables originally.
not the gameboy advance title, I meant this one
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.square_enix.android_googleplay.FFIV_GP&feature=search_result#?t=W10.
Best 15 bucks I spent in some time however, the 16 bit version still is the best..... I will probably never go through this new version ever again , in fact I have already deleted it since completing it. The SNES version I will most certainly play again, and again :) .............................ML
Nintendo has portables that are 3D. Only FF1 and 2 got 2D remake treatments (they were actually originally done for the WonderSwan Color. The height of handheld technology. 3 was supposed to get the same treatment but it got a 3D job like 4 instead.)
(My WonderSwan is actually the FF2 edition.)
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Do I really need to include that part too, just to show what is blatantly obvious to anyone with a brain ? :firstmate:
" the software and its products are owned by the supplier FROM SOFTWARE and are protected by international treaty provisions."
I don't care if someone tries to sell an SoM game because From isn't likely to complain about it. But you shouldn't be spreading misinformation saying it's legal and think no one is smart enough to know otherwise. You wrote a couple paragraphs on your site saying how unprecedented it was that a company (From) would give fans unlimited rights to their intellectual property. That's just balderdash.
And where does that say you cannot distribute your King's Field game?
"You can not separate components for use on more than one computer"
It doesn't say anything about not selling your game either.
Let me explain a very simple aspect of the copyright law to you: if they don't EXPLICITLY give you a right, you don't have it. If you're actually living in reality, you should ask where DOES it say you CAN sell a game.
Selling fan mad stuff is common in Japan.
I doubt it, but are you suggesting that somehow makes it legal?
Never mind this is the same disclaimer you'll find on every single piece of software.
No it's not. Several parts, including some I didn't bother to include make it clear this license was specifically written for SoM.
It isn't a document outlining what you can do with the games you make with SOM.
As stated above, you can NOT do anything unless you are specifically granted that right.
If you own a copy of SOM you can make a game and distribute it.
You're lying. "You can not separate components for use on more than one computer."
And From says this contract is only enforceable for Japanese residents. Foreigners enjoy no restrictions.
You're lying. "protected by international treaty provisions"
And are not forbidden to own a copy of SOM by way of a Japanese reseller.
True, because that right is specifically granted in the license agreement, but completely irrelevant. :drool:
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Do I really need to include that part too, just to show what is blatantly obvious to anyone with a brain ? :firstmate:
" the software and its products are owned by the supplier FROM SOFTWARE and are protected by international treaty provisions."
I don't care if someone tries to sell an SoM game because From isn't likely to complain about it. But you shouldn't be spreading misinformation saying it's legal and think no one is smart enough to know otherwise. You wrote a couple paragraphs on your site saying how unprecedented it was that a company (From) would give fans unlimited rights to their intellectual property. That's just balderdash.
This is nonsense. It's game making software. It's for making games. Redistributable games. That is a feature that I am sure is on the box. The game that it generates is equivalent to a save file. You can share it. You can sell it.
And where does that say you cannot distribute your King's Field game?
"You can not separate components for use on more than one computer"
That applies only to SOM itself. Not the games you make with it.
It doesn't say anything about not selling your game either.
Let me explain a very simple aspect of the copyright law to you: if they don't EXPLICITLY give you a right, you don't have it. If you're actually living in reality, you should ask where DOES it say you CAN sell a game.
This is paranoid thinking. There is no copyright on the games. That's like saying if you buy a magic marker you can't sell your drawing without getting permission from its manufacturer. Also licenses are incredibly verbose. If they were not negative that would not be necessary. All software is licensed. Not copyrighted. No one is copying SOM.
Selling fan mad stuff is common in Japan.
I doubt it, but are you suggesting that somehow makes it legal?
It is actually. The copyright holder has to intercede.
Never mind this is the same disclaimer you'll find on every single piece of software.
No it's not. Several parts, including some I didn't bother to include make it clear this license was specifically written for SoM.
Again. If it was special to SOM it would address the unique aspects of SOM. It's drafted just like a word processing software or anything else.
It isn't a document outlining what you can do with the games you make with SOM.
As stated above, you can NOT do anything unless you are specifically granted that right.
Tell that to everyone who buys SOM to make games. This is paranoid. It's embarrassing to even talk this way. You think you don't have a right to sell a game that you did all of the work for? When there is no clause that says you can't. And you don't need the SOM disc to play the games. That's an insult to From' and humanity. I am sure a court would agree enough is implied that the consumer would be in the right to assume that right.
If you own a copy of SOM you can make a game and distribute it.
You're lying. "You can not separate components for use on more than one computer."
The game you make is not a component. Do you think because the art files are copied into the game folder that means everyone must play your game on the computer you installed SOM onto? You're embarrassing yourself.
And From says this contract is only enforceable for Japanese residents. Foreigners enjoy no restrictions.
You're lying. "protected by international treaty provisions"
That is a statement directly from From Software. Why do you go around calling people liars so casually? The international treaties that are mentioned do not pertain to copying anyway. I can't remember what they were about.
And are not forbidden to own a copy of SOM by way of a Japanese reseller.
True, because that right is specifically granted in the license agreement, but completely irrelevant. :drool:
This is again, another statement from From, just to assure non Japanese users that even though they are not bound by the license they are still encouraged to use SOM, and not in some kind of legal limbo.
EDITED: Also. Just to be clear. Everything here is totally self evident. The only relevant question as far as I am concerned is do you have a right to sell King's Field games. With King's Field IP. As far as I am concerned you do. You'll have to prove otherwise in court if you want to make some kind of a point.
PS: Have some faith in humanity. You can be pretty dark company. You don't want to scare anyone anyway.
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Great debate. I remember having this same discussion with DMP like three years ago. When I first started Fallen by the way, my plan was to sell it and make like a dollar or two profit. He advised me against it....his dark destiny has been redistributed thousands of times. It is freeware fan game, he does charge 5 bucks for a DVD copy. That fee is forhis cost of burning the disk and printing the manual..... That is his cost so by law he can charge for his disk. However he makes it known that the game is freeware....
Now let's say he charged 15 bucks for the software its self, and let's say his game was the end all to end all, and he sold a million plus units and was a breakout indie success, like super meat boy or fez....... I can almost bet from would demand a cut, because he used som. From software is still in business after all, might be different if they went belly up..... In fact they would sue, and win just for name rights to kings field alone....
Now if he bought the devolpers copy of let's say the unreal engine for 15000 bucks, he could build any darn thing he wanted, however he would still be obligated to from for royalty fee for the characters names in the game , as they are kings field characters, and from owns kings field......
To be safe I have to change the names of my characters in SQS, and the name of the game itself from swordquest.
And I HAVE legal rights to recreate the game how I see fit as it is now open source.... However DC comics owns rightsto a comic book that bears the same name and has the same characters in it.... DC told me from ttheir own mouths..... Change the names or face possible litigation..... That was enough for me to hear. Hence my version of swordquest is called SQS........ 2 people you don't,t want to mess .with.... the IRS and DC comics.
Now asking a donation is one option I will take, I might get a buck or two, but if not oh well . building a game for me is fun and a dream of mine.... If I make something on it fine if not that's great too..... But my butthole is to precious to risk crossing DC and from software. :-) 2cents from ML......................
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"Rathmor could easily be the game of the year. Not because Verdite is so great, but because the competition is so pathetic."
Actually because I started off making games here, I think the people who helped me out will be partly responsible if my game is a success. John, yourself, DMP, Madison, Scott, Guyra, Mord. Everyone has helped in their own way, creating and finishing a game is a mammoth task in itself, so it doesnt surprise me that people dont make alot of games on their own. Dont like to blow my own trumpet, making a 100% custom game on your own takes dedication.
So hopefully my imagination will be appreciated through my game, not only because my game lacks competition.
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Best answer yet...... Thanks too for giving props to all of us..... Your new work inspired me to come back, so thank you for the 3 years of dedication :-) ................ML
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Mick, you're the only person I know who can be shown overwhelming evidence and still deny reality- it's like a super power. Ever think of putting on a super hero disguise and fighting crime? Even if the bad guys shot you, you could just insist they hadn't and the bullet holes would disappear.
My work in translating games is related to this topic from a legal standpoint, and I've talked about it to some people who are knowledgeable on copyright precedent. Translation patches generally contain no copyrighted work, but game companies still issues cease and desist orders to translating teams occasionally. Translators have never bothered to resist such an order so there's no court precedent saying that translating is legal or not. But in general, copyright rulings tend to favor strict protection of copyrighted material. The original creators have sole ownership and right to benefit from their creation unless those rights are specifically granted to another by contract. SoM's agreement clearly says that From maintains ownership of the software (which includes game.exe).
Michael Jordan recently won a law suit against a restaurant who ran an ad saying "Congratulations Michael" because his name is copyrighted. When Arnold Schwarzenegger was governor, he won a suit against a company that made bobble headed political dolls and forced them to stop making a doll that looked like him. I don't think copyright law is fair, but that's just how it is.
So ML pretty much hit the nail on the head; From isn't likely to cause trouble unless a fan game made it big, but they could if they wanted to. And who wants to go to court and fight it out for a chance that the court would rule in your favor?
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"Now asking a donation is one option I will take, I might get a buck or two, but if not oh well . building a game for me is fun and a dream of mine.... If I make something on it fine if not that's great too."
Is it okay to recieve donations rather than sell your game? Joe I recall you mentioning that you contacted From and they said it would be ok for you to give the proceeds of your FBTW game to a suicide charity. See, I was listening :wink:
While developing Rathmor I see it as no threat to From. I'm developing my game for free, and even if I did get good recognition for being a developer, it would be, in sense, completely detracting for From to put down a KF style fan game given the fan base KF has. Not to mention that someday From could possibly return to its flagship KF series, and if thats the case... It needs its fanbase alive. If Rathmor takes off, then more and more people will want to enjoy SOM and KF games. This could possibly generate an influx of new fans for From, which would give many happy returns to all their games.
If I thought for a moment that I would be handing my ass to anyone after making a FREE game using my own time that I could have used otherwise constructively, I would have given up years ago. If making my FREE game is going to put me in a difficult situation or anyone around me, then I should be made aware of that.
Finally, from a moral standpoint, it is completely wrong to let a fan site continue to make games with the intention of bringing their creators down along with their games. From knows we are here making games, a company dont just release a product then dissimilate themselves from it, especially if there is a possibility of harvesting potential data to be used in their future games. To be fair I imagine this site has been combed on a regular basis. Would be a lost oppertunity otherwise.
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I would be very interested to know if From did reply to you Joe. That might be the most credible gage we have to measure their attitude on the subject. Very cool of you to donate too!
If making my FREE game is going to put me in a difficult situation or anyone around me, then I should be made aware of that.
I didn't mean to imply that there was impending risk of trouble. I think the worst case scenario would be a "cease and desist" order for anyone. And even if that order was ignored, I think there is zero chance of anything happening beyond civil action (as opposed to criminal). Some companies like Sony and Nintendo are famous for taking civil action at the drop of a hat- closing fan sites that had pictures of their characters, shutting down translation projects etc. But I have never heard of From doing anything like that.
Based on statements I've read in interviews with From employees, I speculate that they would actually be happy at the work being done here, but I have no clue for sure.
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Just to chime in on some things ML was talking about, I could never sell my game because its called "King's Field" that is most certainly protected intellectual property. The world, characters, story and likeness are all From's work, I would be 100% sure I would fail epicly if I tried to sell that game.
There are multiple laws beyond just basic copyright laws that would have to be looked into for selling any game made with SoM I am sure.
In Ben's case he is replacing all graphical assets with his own, which is a big help to it being feasible, and he isnt calling it KF or using any of the KF likenesses.
Earlier this year I had to sign a contract to produce a certain number of video games for another company to distribute...the contract was 19 pages long and there were a dozen or so different agreements within related to game engine, ip, distribution and so on..all written in a language only lawyers comprehend. It is fairly complicated and scary stuff honestly, I wouldn't go suggesting to anyone to do any sales without first consulting an attorney, but that of course is really only if you think you are going to make real money off it.
My question to anyone who wants to make a salable game is why would you choose SoM in the first place? The point of it is to make KF clones, in its state circa PS2 era. Its a fun tool for an individual because its easy to pick up and use, but to even begin to dream about anything modern you must first rely on a completely set of tools being developed by, and don't take this personally HolyDiver, a singular fan. I am not saying SomEx won't eventually be viable for an engine to make games for sale, but who knows when that could be finished, years from now perhaps? Assuming that Holy decides to stick with it to the end (which he very may well do) or doesn't get hit by a bus!
Its wonderful to partake in the development and experience of watching a piece of software grow, the steps you guys make are amazing, but if I were making a game I wanted to make a living off of, the last place I would start is SoM. Maybe in a few years when HolyDiver releases a masterpiece of technology, sure, but not now.
Just my 2 cents, sorry if I hurt any feelings/egos.
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Mick, you're the only person I know who can be shown overwhelming evidence and still deny reality- it's like a super power. Ever think of putting on a super hero disguise and fighting crime? Even if the bad guys shot you, you could just insist they hadn't and the bullet holes would disappear.
You know this is really unsettling. I am not sure I can carry on this discussion.
My work in translating games is related to this topic from a legal standpoint, and I've talked about it to some people who are knowledgeable on copyright precedent. Translation patches generally contain no copyrighted work, but game companies still issues cease and desist orders to translating teams occasionally.
That's because you are copying the game. The text of the game. And if not in patch form you are literally copying the game. You don't seem to understand that copyright exists to forbid forgeries and straight up copies of a product.
Software licenses tell you how you can use a piece of software. The default is you can do anything you can think of with the software.
SoM's agreement clearly says that From maintains ownership of the software (which includes game.exe).
It doesn't say that. You own it. You bought it. It's on your computer. It says you can't copy it. The files here http://svn.swordofmoonlight.net/ are a breech of copyright. The disassembly provisions exist so that you can't make SOM_RUN work without the CD being inserted.
What you are saying is Microsoft owns every .doc file on the planet. You are not thinking things through. You are too arrogant. And you seem to have a paranoid conception of reality where companies like From that produce Sword of Moonlight King's Field Making Tools are predatory and deceptive in doing so. Or would be so twisted as you seem to project as to litigate against someone making a King's Field game with a King's Field Making Tool. It's absurd to even have this conversation. It's insulting to From', to humanity, to yourself included. It's really sick and twisted and unsettling and a waste of time. A true perversion if there ever was one.
I employ you to lighten up. Whether you can appreciate it or not, you are a dark blemish on the body of the world. It isn't helping. And it's going to make SOM look bad if we keep having people who will stop at nothing to utter such unsettling things hanging on.
PS: I am deploying such strong language to highlight the severity of the charges here. I could care less. My only problem is the image problem this will make for the SOM community. We don't need morose parties hanging around. I am a happy-go-lucky guy. I can't tolerate this dark negativity. It ills me to the core.
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Just to chime in on some things ML was talking about, I could never sell my game because its called "King's Field" that is most certainly protected intellectual property. The world, characters, story and likeness are all From's work, I would be 100% sure I would fail epicly if I tried to sell that game.
Well you choose for yourself to inhabit an absurd world then. A world where you cannot make a King's Field game with a King's Field Making Tool. How you can live with such cognitive dissidence is beyond me and anyone with a healthy head on their shoulders.
Even if you were hauled into court in some hypothetical Orwellian double speak dystopia. And such abuse of language was vindicated. Do you really think From Software's good name would survive such a battle? No. So you are insulting the intelligence of the good people of From, and insulting their goodwill to give you a tool to make King's Field games with.
When I make software I make if for people to use it. And when I name software I do so to indicate the proper use of said software. So if you choose to live in a world where you cannot make King's Field games with a King's Field Making Tool, well then your mind must be very long gone indeed.
Words have meaning. It's the denial of that that probably bother me most. The sheer depths of irrationality achievable by my fellow man right in my face is a close second.
Its a fun tool for an individual because its easy to pick up and use, but to even begin to dream about anything modern you must first rely on a completely set of tools being developed by, and don't take this personally HolyDiver, a singular fan.
Everything is free and open source. Better even. Public domain. It's probably the best such game making tool on the planet already. And who here will deny its impeccable pedigree? At this point if you start making a game, I will beat you to you finishing your game. So it's not too soon to start making a game. It is lonely. But being the lone hero on an otherwise miserable planet is what I do.
PS: I am not so much a fan as you might think. If there was a better way to do what I am doing I wouldn't be using SOM. It's a calculated decision. SOM just happens to be the best way to go about doing what needs to be done hands down. By leaps and bounds in fact.
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Ya know what I love you all, let's just have fun and make great games with a decent little engine from 1999 :-)
:beerchug: .......and let's not worry about the evil corporate hands of doom that surround the video game industry until they attempt to bestow their evil grasp :-) yeah something like that ....... ML
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