Sword of Moonlight Forum
Game Making Theory => General Theory Discussions => Topic started by: Holy_Diver on March 09, 2013, 01:33:30 am
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I'm just posting a redirect here so I know everyone sees this:
http://www.swordofmoonlight.net/bbs2/index.php?topic=139.0
It can be kind of easy to miss because I've stickied it.
Anyway I've had kind of an idea like this stuck in my head for a long time. It's just now all coming together. I'd like to see a game to rival the corporate games, or even make a mockery of them, born of everyone who wants to working on it opensource style just like a lot of software is developed nowadays. I don't see any reason why games should be any different. And I think SOM is the platform for the job, and I think KF is game with the pedigree.
I still think KF2 is the best game of all time. And the quintessential 3D adventure game. So its only right for the first big opensource game to be KF and herald a new era of 3D video games in the same way I think KF heralded the arrival of 3D video games.
I am going for a Shadow of the Colossus slayer but with a more conventional experience so that it doesn't feel like a flagrant exercise in minimalism.
PS: also I am working on new controls for SOM that I think will be the dominant controls for SOM games in the KF vein going forward. They've turned out really well and much better than expected, including: dodging/rushing, jumping, ducking, climbing, hanging, fast turning, shields, all without any new buttons, so pay attention if you are into in that sort of thing.
PPS: Don't be surprised if I don't reply to this thread. I'd lock if I could. Feel free to do so. I honestly don't have any reason to navigate back to here, but I will leave the tab open for a day or two.
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This project has a name and a wiki page now (http://en.swordofmoonlight.org/wiki/King%27s_Field_Episode_IV:_A_New_Hope)
Still empty. Just saying it has a proper name :bowl:
EDITED: Also there is now a template on the SOM/game pages with SOM games under From's games. sounds like kittens are being born, better get going :bowl:
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I'll check all this out tomorrow, for now I really do need to go to bed, though I am curious, why KF episode IV? (other than the Star Wars nod)...wouldn't a new game be V?
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I'll check all this out tomorrow, for now I really do need to go to bed, though I am curious, why KF episode IV? (other than the Star Wars nod)...wouldn't a new game be V?
I didn't set out to (it was pure coincidence) but it's going to kick off with a rewrite of IV, and then go V and VI. And then go back to I and II and III. And then maybe onto VII and VIII and IX, if all goes well. So that's the joke for Star Wars. Actually coming up with a name for the project was the scariest part. So the Star Wars bit was just the trick.
Unless From' does something that isn't a joke with KF its going to be "A New Hope" too in so far as everyone gets involved. Plus the Episode part officially dissociates itself from From's game. Anyway its just an official title. I don't think titles really matter if everyone and their mom is going to be making games 10 years from now.
PS: The wiki pages are literally there so anyone can steer the project. It's an important tool for collaborative projects :beerchug:
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Here is a run down on the races. I submit that everything should fit neatly into one of these categories. I don't think there needs to be any others.
I will just copy it here...
Races
Most peoples and creatures of the world are of a mixed heritage even if they know better, but originally there were distinct races.
A verbal note on Dragons and Demons: Magic draws its power from unseen Dragons. Their lesser known counterparts are Demons—True Demons, never minding the monstrous mechanisations of Guyra—the demonic engines of logic antithetical to all that is magic. There are men born half-dragon possessing inborn familiarity of the elementary magics of Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth, owing to their dragon blood. And there are men born half-demon, commanding the "anti-magic" of Light flowing through their demon blood; and sometimes still there are men born with a foot in both of the worlds of Dragons and Demons.
Dragons
Dragons are the oldest of races. Their existence itself is ephemeral as they existed prior to existence itself. They come in four varieties attributable to the four magical elements each commanded by the gods Sylval, Elfos, Elwin, and Valad.
Fire dragons are the oldest and most feared dragon, hence their relative popularity among storytelling school children. But were the world ever to witness a fire dragon its doom would almost assuredly be sealed. Some of mankind's elite fire magi have claimed communion with these beasts, but if their claims are to believed, then their audience with the dragons took place in another world between the spaces of worlds.
Water dragons make their homes in the deep oceans. They are called leviathans, or sometimes mistakenly sea monsters. It is thought that none have dwelt in the world since Elfos deserted it eons ago. These dragons are flightless solitary creatures.
Wind dragons are known as drakes. Sometimes mistaken as wyverns. They are smaller and fly through the skies, making their homes on mountain tops. Sometimes in flocks. It is thought that these too left the world with Elwin when he with Elfos deserted the world.
Earth dragons are properly known as serpents. These sly dragons will often display majestic wings and ape other dragons. But do not be fooled by their trickery. They are flightless and independent, but known to make dubious alliances.
Elfkind
Elves are a primordial hominid race resembling taller paler and leaner men and women brought into being by Elfos and Elwin for the only purpose of acting as perfectly benevolent stewards of the world ecosystem, flora and fauna.
Giants and Dwarves
Valad, the smallest of the gods, created giants to construct large earthworks, so that the world would not be flat from end to end. Giants came in all sizes but man size and hibernate underground to this day, occasionally rising from their slumber to supper and assist heroes along their way. Larger giants hibernate for longer periods of time. Many believe that earthquakes indicate a giant sleeps in the vicinity.
Giants are the most peaceful of the races, but their clumsy scale often lends itself to unfortunate accidents. Giants believe that their sleep is best for everyone and love to dream more than anything in the world.
When Elfos and Elwin abandoned the world, in his lonesomeness Valad created the dwarf race. Elves would have nothing to do with him, so Valad in his questionable wisdom created dwarves to be the opposite of the elves. Boisterous and competitive but not warlike.
Do not be fooled by the name of Valad's late race. They are dwarfish, but only if you were to ask a giant. In short, Valad was unhappy with his giants. For they provided him little entertainment nor company during his stint as the lone god of the world. Even the smallest of their kind would nap for centuries. This simply would not do.
Mankind
Men are reckoned by many to be no more than an offshoot of one of the many more dominant mixed races. But their features and behavior is curious indeed. And their wars seemingly endless. In the earlier times children would be born with a curious affinity to Fire magic. Within educated circles it is generally agreed that the original men must surely have been the immaculate work of Sylval.
Although those who think so do try not to dwell upon the implications of such an apocalyptic god as Sylval having his hand in any race. There have been many tries to rid the races of mankind for the good of the world. Alas even gambling men know better to bet against the sunrise than to cast their lot with those odds.
Monsters & Demons
Monsters are an unfortunate side effect of Valad's attempt to remedy the mankind situation. In desperation Valad separated himself into the Earth dragons Seath and Guyra so that he would no longer be so lonely and so that the races would be able to rally around the dragons.
Because the magical half of Valad went to Seath and the logical half to Guyra, the disharmony that remained bent and twisted the fertile body of Valad. Where vegetation once had its origins in the Dragon Tree instead of a bed of monstrosities took its place.
Whether or not monsters deserve the respect of the other races is very seldom disputed. To call it racism would be incorrect. But monsters do possess personalities of their own, and some among the religious orders would even argue souls.
Demons are the product of Guyra's experimentation with monsters in order to create hybrids with properties of anti-magic sometimes called light, or law, considered holy by the men of more recent eras.
Guyra understood well his weakness to magic, and so created an army of his demons to serve as his protectors. The most successful experiments resulted in demons without weakness that would be forever loyal to Guyra.
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I've added a description of these games...
http://en.swordofmoonlight.org/wiki/King%27s_Field_Episode_IV:_A_New_Hope
I would really appreciate it any feedback as to whether or not this sounds like an acceptable continuation of King's Field or not. It isn't necessarily a definitive timeline. It could be if you want it to be. But even to my mind, and I think I've read this somewhere, the universe is regularly recreated by Sylval, so presumably each cycle is different.
Still if From made these games would it feel off base? I don't know. They sound as good as anything to me, and in keeping with the twists and turns of the trilogy.
Here is the gist of it games overview wise.... I will need help to make these come together, so bear in mind if you are totally offended at least others will have to be complicate in my crimes :1zhelp:
Planned trilogies
The projects begin with Episode 4, not unlike the Star Wars trilogies. From Software has not produced a new King's Field game since IV. The fourth game in the series is unrelated to the original trilogy, or the first three games. And not well received. Episode 4 was originally conceived of independent of IV, however it bore so many similarities, that it was decided that it can serve as a reworking of the fourth game, without any concessions in the slightest made to better overlap with IV. If there is any derivation between them it is purely subconscious, probably born of disappointments if so.
The decision to replace the fourth sequel in the new canon is also practical. If this is not done then the direct continuation in the form of subsequent trilogies would not be possible. The back story is consistent across the games admitting to exist within the canon. However each trilogy is separated by vast distances of time. And the affairs therein are entirely disconnected. Exact dates are to never be given, so that the timeline remains flexible, for the purpose of inserting new games and events at any point within the canon. The history and back story as presented in any given game is allowed to and even encouraged to be inaccurate or deceptive, but anything that plays out in the form of game play or cutscene adheres to canon or invites rejection.
IV, V, VI
IV follows Solomon, a young man with the innate talent for fire magic, while he explores a future Melanat aided by Meryl, a pure blooded elf fountain maiden of a few centuries native to Melanat by way of a clutch of an unbroken line of original elves making their home in a protected caldera at the summit of the larger of the twin landmasses making up the island.
The similarities to From Software's IV are a few. Solomon is cast out on a mission to save the fate of the land in the eyes of his people or perish doing so. He does not bear an idol to deliver to the underworld, but he is sent to use his fire magic to quiet the volcano of Melanat, and will need to venture into its underworld in order to do so. He will pull the Moonlight Sword from the roots of the Dragon Tree in a scene similar to how the sword is rekindled in IV. And he will discover a forest paradise in an unlikely place, and just as the elf aids the hero in IV amid such a paradise he is aided by Meryl, an elf and playable character that is not so different.
V follows the half-elf daughter of Solomon and Meryl, now king and queen of Elegria, as she crisscrosses the continent, once parched and now flooded by the events of IV, by boat, visiting the many highlands that remain above water. Just like her mother she is a consummate swimmer at home in the waters. Much of the game involves exploring underwater environments.
In IV Solomon was not only able to placate Melanat, but somehow summoned the negligent sea and sky gods Elfos and Elwin to return the rains and waters to the bone dry crevices of greater Elegria. In the presence of the two gods somewhere between the sun and the moon Solomon witnessed from outer space as the atmosphere of his world was repaired. In awe he saw that his home is a child's ball impossibly small, and what is more, the whole of Elegria as he could discern it, must have been no more than a spec on that spec of a ball.
VI follows a pure-elf nature boy born with a rare ability to venture far and wide across time and space (edited: not literally; by animal back) free from the ever present addiction to the poison water of Melanat, and its sister springs scattered across the wider continent, endured by his kind since time in memoriam. Like all pure-elves he shares the language of animals which he may hail from across great expanses by sending entreaties along the great winds. By a constant battery of animal cohorts he is able to cross the entire continent more swiftly than anyone of his era. His only stalwart ally is a falcon with a bird's-eye view who sees what he sees and vice versa.
We soon learn that the demons of long lost Guyra have made their home in a new world and have determined to make their way to far Elegria. It looks like the remnants of the flood will be no match as they make preparation to receive their demonic guests. One by one the still waterlogged tribes of Elegria are willingly enslaved until the moment of the final showdown arrives. The Moonlight Sword and newly recovered Dark Slayer are readied to be pitted against the foreign invaders. Sealed inside the seat of the continent, now surrounded Melanat, a desperate pact is made with a pair of old dragons.
I, II, III
This trilogy comes in the form of retcon of From Software's trilogy including reshaping Melanat in whatever form it takes in IV for II, and likewise for Verdite of VI for III.
VII, VIII, IX
In VII we learn that the tables have turned. Logic reigns supreme amok the far future world. Magic is an arcane memory. Demons are the masters of the high tech world. We follow a half-demon who is sympathetic to the mostly human underclass. Not that the humans did not deserve their fate, unleashing those fiendish dragons to do their bidding. If only they had listened to the demons who came in peace...
Well for now anyway they have it (the setting this time around is a lot like Vampire Hunter D. The most senior demons are not dissimilar from vampires.)
Throw a dog a bone :smash2:
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PS: To put some things into perspective with respect to the above information.
To begin with there is not enough room in this format to explain the details of the setup of each game, and only Ep. 4 has been thought out, and only in a very sweeping sense. Also Episode_IV:_A_New_Hope is the name of the entire project. It's like IV and its sequels, however far things get.
Finally, as for some of the more shocking aspects. What is a demon? Well its explained a few posts up. But Milia is a demon for example. And what is a vampire? Well its a kind of a demon. But the pure blooded elves that are mentioned. They are not vegetarians. They especially enjoy fish and fowl, usually raw. They don't do agriculture or animal husbandry, that's all human stuff...
And you see the PC in Ep. 6 is a pure-elf and he has a falcon companion. And they have intelligent conversations of sorts. He considers them to be equals. And doesn't pretend that elves are superior to animals, or animals are superior to plants. And he likes to dine on birds too. So what is a vampire? It's all fairly relative. And its safe to say that the vampires posited here are just run of the mill demons.
They are demon royalty or whatever, but we can't conclude they are any different from the elves that we can call monstrous cannibals if we wanted to. And I am sure there are carrion demons and fungi monsters, that live off of already dead things only. Peaceniks.
EDITED: I think the falcon will be in V too. It will be the eyes of Meryl (watching over her daughter) who is cast out for loving a man. But you will have a mostly passive relationship with it.
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From what I have heard, stories usually change quite a bit during the development process so I'm not sure it's wise to plot out minute details before a game goes into serious production. The reason for that is that ultimately the story has to get "bent" as needed to support interesting gameplay.
As far as whether the stories are worthy successors to KF, so much depends on how it is fleshed out in the final game.
The outline for 4 sounds intriguing, but I don't think the name Solomon is ideal. It brings to mind pictures of an old, bearded man or maybe a fat, short, Jewish jeweler wearing a loop and a yarmulke. I think a fantasy name that only hints at an English word is better. Actually, just plain "Solo" seems like a nice name.
In 5, swimming between islands seems like a neat gaming convention to explore. I'm not crazy about the main character being a royal. I think playing an "underdog" is always more interesting. Like in ICO where you start as a discarded cursed child who struggles to find his path. If he had started as a prince with a royal guard retinue, it would have changed the game's feel considerably.
In 6, the "ability to venture far and wide across time and space" seems too abstract and powerful. Again, a flawed and weak character who struggles against all odds seems more interesting than a time traveling teleporter. Having an animal companion is nice.
If you're intrigued with exploring a fully fleshed out story, maybe writing novels would be a good way to go? It might also be hard to find other game developers to jump onboard with your story visions. I once saw a post on a game-maker's forum where a person was suggesting a plotline for the developer's next game. The developer replied "stories are like nostrils, everyone has at least two and no one wants to pick someone else's".
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From what I have heard, stories usually change quite a bit during the development process so I'm not sure it's wise to plot out minute details before a game goes into serious production. The reason for that is that ultimately the story has to get "bent" as needed to support interesting gameplay.
Yes. But I think the game play in this case will be firmly established. And completely consistent in every game except for parts that might be unique to games like riding animals. As for the story these are just my best attempts. The project is an invitation for everyone to join the fray. If someone comes up with a better concept, even mid development of a game, then the direction will change. Better is better.
As far as whether the stories are worthy successors to KF, so much depends on how it is fleshed out in the final game.
My concern is what seems befitting KF. Everyone probably has their own ideas about what is KF and what isn't. In other words, what is the essence? Both in terms of setting and mood, and of course game play.
The outline for 4 sounds intriguing, but I don't think the name Solomon is ideal. It brings to mind pictures of an old, bearded man or maybe a fat, short, Jewish jeweler wearing a loop and a yarmulke. I think a fantasy name that only hints at an English word is better. Actually, just plain "Solo" seems like a nice name.
Well the best game is KF2. And the hero of that game is named Aleph. That's a Hebrew word. It's the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet no less. Solomon also comes from people descended from Aleph, who was a prince of Granitiki. I often hear this criticism of names. I don't think they are that important or much less the story should be compromised because a particular name might stir specific notions in someones head, or be mocked. Just as an example I was told once that a character could not be called Maxi, short of Maximilian, because it would make people think about tampons. It's the job of the game to change the way people think about words. Apple has made a bundle off its iPads. When people say iPad now, I doubt tampon is the first thing that springs to mind even though for a little while Apple did have to weather that verbal disagreement. Bottom line if a story can't have primacy for the people who enjoy it, its probably not worth whatever its printed on.
In 5, swimming between islands seems like a neat gaming convention to explore. I'm not crazy about the main character being a royal. I think playing an "underdog" is always more interesting. Like in ICO where you start as a discarded cursed child who struggles to find his path. If he had started as a prince with a royal guard retinue, it would have changed the game's feel considerably.
Well you will use boats to cross from island to island. Swimming doesn't seem super practical. It's going to be difficult to structure that one, or to figure out a plausible reason for island hopping. The game will focus a lot on swimming. Right now my working concept is when Melanat is flooded it opens access to some odd caverns. And while exploring in there a weakened Dark Slayer is discovered. Then somehow it leads the player to the four corners of Melanat where 4 magical crystals were sealed away long ago at the highest peaks. Each crystal recharges the Dark Slayer until it is fully restored. And in the next game the two swords are brought together and somehow that allows Seath and Guyra to be resurrected in the last instant. The princess will be a tom boy, the queen is a tom boy too, and the king is an unlikely hero, they are only aspirational royalty because the numbers of the human race at this time are next to non-existent and the world itself is just recovering from a variable apocalypse. She might not even accept the title of princess, and will never become queen either way. In V she'd be an explorer and concerned for the well being of the peoples of the the highlands plain and simple.
If the falcon from V would appear in VI it would mean that not too much time could pass, just a decade or so or less between each game, like in the trilogy. Solomon probably would be a bearded man by the time of the 3rd game. He could even reappear in the next trilogy if Guyra took over his body or something to walk among men as a mystery immortal. Like Jean in KF3.
In 6, the "ability to venture far and wide across time and space" seems too abstract and powerful. Again, a flawed and weak character who struggles against all odds seems more interesting than a time traveling teleporter. Having an animal companion is nice.
He can't move across time and space literally. It just feels that way because normally his people cannot venture far from the poison waters, like in KF2. He moves far and wide by riding animals like horses. So he is like the Paul Revere pony express more or less, which in a medieval setting (and even a contemporary RPG) really does feel like flying. And he can fly by seeing what his falcon sees and guiding it were to go more or less telepathically.
Each game is setup as an incremental challenge. By this third game we have a lot to cope with. Moving across the entire continent basically. But I think still there will be content zones and once you move too far away the view will zoom out to an overworld map, kind of blending things along the way. From there you pick your destination and are probably subject to a time limit.
If you're intrigued with exploring a fully fleshed out story, maybe writing novels would be a good way to go? It might also be hard to find other game developers to jump onboard with your story visions. I once saw a post on a game-maker's forum where a person was suggesting a plotline for the developer's next game. The developer replied "stories are like nostrils, everyone has at least two and no one wants to pick someone else's".
It's true. I am the programmer. I won't be writing a damn thing. There will have to writers for that. Anyone who wants to can do a basic prototype. But at some point someone with writing chops will have to jump on the bandwagon.
I am really not impressed by people making a game all by themselves. I think eventually making a game will be mostly like writing books. In other words there will come a time where corporations will no longer be in that business. Corporations will look for good games like good books to option for big budget adaptations (which may or may not be worthy of the source material just like with movies)
But it will be a long time before we get there, and I am not convinced that all you need to be is a writer to make a good game given the game making equivalent of pencil and paper. You have a lot more things to deal with. And games are not as personal as books. Plus they are interactive. If there is only two people involved its still the writer and the player pulling an equal load :beerchug:
EDITED: And even still I think part of the weakness in the corporate/retail model is it is inherently exclusive. People don't get to have a say in the process and feel left out of it, passive. Like I say games are not so personal as books often are. And every player plays it differently. So that's all the more reason to make it an inclusive collaborative process.
PS: As for Solo vs. Solomon. That seems like a Nintendo like move to me. Like I say I don't know what is and isn't KF for everyone. But part of it to me is KF is more mature. Something that looks like Legend of Zelda is not likely going to fly even if its otherwise a good idea. If you read the thread linked too in the first post, there is a basis for using Solomon. Part of it is it sounds like solo-man, and part of it is the legendary Solomon is the quintessential sorcerer King. And there is a magic field system. So built into a rebirth of KF you can literally read that into King's Field. Either way its a good name.
The real king is the player of course. But starting the first game out with an explicit reference just helps to lay that bare. I didn't search for a justification or what King's Field means. It just came out that way totally coincidentally on both counts. Just read the forums, everything is there.
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Also, just for the record, I think the better short name for Solomon would be Sol :bowl:
PS: It's pronounced like Saw, so it doesn't sound like solo, it just looks like it. So Solo would sound like Sala more or less (I know everyone probably knows this, but just reminding everyone because it only just occurred to me)
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^I won't develop this much here. But it occurred to me that the 4 crystals setup in the proposal for V is actually very good.
I see it like a Dragon Ball adventure, where you travel with companions using the Dark Slayer as a compass.
First some background on Dark Slayer. This only occurred to me very very recently since I've been thinking about combining magics. Mixing them to get hybrid effects.
I shortly determined that the best effect for mixing all four magics (fire, water, wind, earth) is lightning, because you need all four to make a lightning bolt. You need the earth obviously to attract it. And you need heat water and air to form the storm clouds that generate the bolt...
Then its pretty obvious that since Dark Slayer has all four elements being equal, that its sword magic just has to be lightning based.
But! It only later occurred to me (like days ago) that the name itself, Dark Slayer, perfectly captures a lightning bolt in the middle of the night. Its like the dark of the night itself is literally slayed right before your eyes. Like a giant black sword ripping through it.
To me this is awesome. In fact so much of this comes together so well, its downright mysterious. I can't remember off the top of my head what the sword magic for Dark Slayer is in KF2 and 3. But this is why we are discussing refactoring everything.
And if there is any question. I want to make something that will bring the world to its knees, so as effectively as possible we can make the best case going forward for both SOM and making games in a totally public domain share and share alike way.
I imagine something that makes the crowd that liked SOTC think this new thing, KF, is orders of magnitude more magnificent. And no I am not a writer. I write code. But I can see myself taking on directorial responsibilities, like the director of a movie, I think that is what I am best qualified for actually. But I'd probably be one of those directors that angers everyone involved, so that's the only reason I have doubts about even playing that role. Normally its not a problem, but if you are trying to do something open, and social, then pissing everyone off is probably going to do more harm than its worth (I can always make my directors cut version after the dust settles)
Finally as for V. The Dark Slayer is perfect for this. And here is why. In KF we talk about the dragon knights I think. And there would be dragon kings you'd think too. So I imagine there was a time when Elegria was a federation with 4 dragon kings in each corner. Fire in the north, Water in the east, Wind in the west, and Earth in the south. And they were dragon kings because their power came from dragons, or what I would submit is where the magic actually comes from (edited: actually this is simple, dragon+knight=magic+knight) and probably they kept the company of dragons. Their subjects may have believed the kings were dragons.
And federal seat was in the middle of the continent, where Verdite is. The king of the continent was called the Black Dragon, because there are no black dragons, but instead that is where the four magics came together. Each king had a crystal where their magic was consolidated. And the Black Dragon had a black crystal. And that is the Dark Crystal, which is what the Dark Slayer used to be. And the black dragon wielded lightning through the combined might of the four satellite kings and their kingdoms.
So the Dark Crystal was like a key used to access the other crystals, since the middle kingdom would be the axis through which the others would meet and make decisions. Round table style. And the remains of the Black Dragon king are among the ancient ruins that the cemetery of KF1 sits astride according to its back story.
I think this period would have seen the continent more populated and prosperous than ever, in a way that would not even be befitting a proper King's Field game, which as we know, must be desolated :rofl:
And I think the kings would have known of other continents that would have been their colonies. But eventually the federation broke down and civil war ensued. It's possible that it was after that that Elfos and Elwin had enough and departed taking the dragons with them.
According to my back story notes Sylval would have already been AOL. So I don't think fire dragons would have been around. But they could have been believed to be nesting beneath Melanat in the mantle below the earth's crust. I think fire dragons are only ever summoned as transient spells, or appear if the world is about to end and be made anew. Only a great hero could get in the way of that.
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I used this (above) to fill in the back story for two new swords I've planned for IV:
Frostbite & Firebrand
These swords are each halves of the Dragon Sword Excalibur forged of finest steel and bequeathed by the gods to the Black Dragon Arthur, [the first] king of the Four Dragon Kings.
When Elfos and Elwin fled the world in the shadow of ruinous infighting among the kingdoms, they separated Excalibur into Frostbite and Firebrand, leaving Frostbite in two pieces with the secluded pure blooded elves of Melanat to be let loose no sooner than the worlds faintest hour.
Valad misplaced the remaining half. He is sure that he left it somewhere he knows not. Excalibur itself was a double edged blade. As two halves each of the blades are single edged sabres nearly oriental in design.
PS: there are no plans to recombine these into Excalibur. They are more useful as halves, because Frostbite has 0 fire affinity it is able to pass through a Fire field without disrupting the field. Its earth affinity is quite low too so it won't likely affect an Earth field either. Firebrand is the same except for Water and Wind. In the new system magic swords are more unique in having affinities missing. Since all common blades consist of all four elements in nearly equal values. Excalibur was just such a sword, probably without even sword magic (still useful for interacting with any kind of elemental field)
EDITED: Neither are these particularly powerful compared to the likes of the Moonlight or Dark Slayer. Mid level fair truly.
EDITED: I may be wrong but I think KF4 featured a fire and ice sword prominently. Maybe not. Maybe all elements were represented equally. But anyway that's one more coincidental similarity to tie the games together thematically if so.
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Frostbite & Firebrand kind of remind me of Vampire Hunter D's sword. But not quite.
I have a feeling that it would be interesting if the third trilogy (long ways away I know, unless they are worked on in parallel at some point) protagonist, first game, a half-demon, somehow begins the game with both of these in his possession. I think this would be then KF's Alucard moment, so you'd have these two magical swords from the get go, but due to the weakened influence of magic in the world they might not be so powerful, but could grow in power as the player learns to wield magic against the rules of the world.
First of all. Being a half-demon would be interesting, in that you can do super human moves. Have a much more impressive jump just for instance. A normal jump, much less wearing armoring, is not all that impressive.
And having two swords would make the character stand out, as being more like Edge in Final Fantasy IV. Kind of like an ambidextrous ninja,. And since the swords are single sided blades, it would be an interesting opportunity to introduce non-violent gameplay, so that somehow the player could use the backsides of the swords to knock targets out without killing them. Like you see in a lot of stealth games nowadays. Plus the PC could have vampire like abilities to put people to sleep by attacking at very close range from behind or something (I am not sure how you'd work these into the controls without extra buttons to the side, but maybe if the character never used shields, these special abilities could just use the shield controls)
Many of your opponents would be robots (other weapons available would be sci-fi things for the most part too) so even being such a formidable character, you'd still have a very difficult time at times. Other times it might be fun to just role play an unmatched character.
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I think the word translated as "demon" is more accurately rendered as "Evil Spirit". Just like the word which is commonly translated as "magician" these days is closer to "Master of Evil Spirits". Mind you, I'm not talking about the proper name which was phonetically spelled after the western word; to Japanese ears, that would have just like a made up name so it would be better approximated in a Western game by using a phonetic spelling of a Japanese word. "Magician and "demon" seem like dumbed down western approximations for something that could have a much better and rich back story. "Demons" have been made too much a cliche by every fantasy game/movie/book made during the last 30 years to be interesting. I think giving them a more colorful backstory and explanation- something like Hungry Ghosts, would be cool.
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I think the word translated as "demon" is more accurately rendered as "Evil Spirit". Just like the word which is commonly translated as "magician" these days is closer to "Master of Evil Spirits". Mind you, I'm not talking about the proper name which was phonetically spelled after the western word; to Japanese ears, that would have just like a made up name so it would be better approximated in a Western game by using a phonetic spelling of a Japanese word. "Magician and "demon" seem like dumbed down western approximations for something that could have a much better and rich back story. "Demons" have been made too much a cliche by every fantasy game/movie/book made during the last 30 years to be interesting. I think giving them a more colorful backstory and explanation- something like Hungry Ghosts, would be cool.
What words are you referring to? Akuma? Madoushi? Either way in this case. Monster and Demon have very specific meaning. Read the Races post. A Monster is like an Arthurian monster. It has elemental magic. A Demon is an engineered monster artificially enhanced with Light magic, or an offspring of such a monster. Enhanced by Guyra's experiments, some of which probably took place in the lab of KF2, where you find the last Light crystal.
Guyra is a master of Light and Shadow as the plate near his lair says. Seath is the master of the elements. Seath's minions are monsters. Guyra is weak against the elements since they are not of his nature. So he makes his Demon army to protect him. I may be wrong (I could check) but having played KF1 and KF2 not long ago, I am nearly certain that the Demons, the bipedal things with bat wings and tails, are called "Demons", like Dimon or something close to that (other than this I can only advise against reading individual kanji literally... also Shadow Tower's worlds are kind of based on Buddhist realms or whatever, including Hungry Ghosts)
According to the backstory for these games no monsters existed in the world until Valad separated himself into the dragons Guyra and Seath, though I thing that truly Guyra and Seath separated Valad now, but because the dragons are the organs of the gods to Valad he felt that this was done of his own volition. Consciously he wanted to give the races a god and a devil to rally around so to stop their warring, even if it meant dividing everyone up into two camps like axis and ally powers he figured this was better than a royal rumble (all against all) but subconsciously I think he was growing lonelier and lonelier as the only remaining god, and decided if there were two of him, at the least he would not be so lonely. But truly this sense of loneliness was the will to power of Guyra and Seath tearing at him from the inside out...
Guyra and Seath are like the mind of Valad. Just as we have two lobes in our brain, Guyra is the analytical lobe (left) and and Seath is the emotional lob (right) and so as the logical and magical halves of Valad separated his body, the Dragon Tree, was the only remaining husk, and in the madness that remained in it, instead of being the bed of the world's vegetation, it became instead the bed of the worlds monsters. So in a way the monsters are plantlike. As faerie folk often are, so anything like a sprite is classified as a monster.
Demons are more logical, like a dream that seems logical, however meaningless it may be, they follow rules, and orders, and can be very loyal, despite their monstrous origins. But monsters are disloyal. The demons in this way have much more in common with demonic beings the way they are portrayed in stories of the occult, and monsters have more in common with the kid friendly folklore of the old world. Demons then are more like the devils of modern day religions.
Anyway since this event birthed the monsters, it pretty much makes no sense at all to set a game prior to this period, because you'd have nothing to do battle with but men, animals, and dragons. The true dragon knights (like the final class equal Strength and Magic) existed prior to the monsters, though it may be that the title remained up to the events of the trilogy, either in legend, or rank.
PS: Just to be clear. The way damage works in these games is Fire blocks Fire. Which is the way its always worked. Monsters have no (built in) Light affinity (in theory they could still wear armor; indeed a half-monster PC may need to do so) the only affinity that the Moonlight Sword possesses. So a monster is completely at the mercy of the Moonlight Sword. It has no defenses. The power of the wielder is translated directly into damage. Demons on the other hand do have defenses. So a Demon is more than anything a challenge for the player even in the late game after attaining the Moonlight. Also a Demon was once a monster, so a Demon is an enemy that in theory can have no weaknesses, making it the ultimate challenge. Even Guyra and Seath have weakness, and very wide open ones, despite their immense power.
Likewise Light (aka. Holy) armor is of no value versus monsters. For them you need elemental armor. But versus Demons its a must.
EDITED: Also just to be absolutely clear. Light here includes Shadow. So like the moon that is half light and half shadow, this affinity swings both ways, but it is ultimately meaningless because it is a single affinity. It probably doesn't even make sense to say Light is holy and Shadow is unholy. If anything is unholy its the elemental magic probably. But truly Light is only called Holy because it represents law, which modern men came to value and associate with the daylight, where magic, and monsters, were associated with the night and considered unholy for obvious reasons, but most of all unlawful, because they follow no logic in their ultimate manifestations, and with most men, especially men of the priesthood, that does not sit well...
On the other hand you can also call magic holy. That is what Seath represents. He is more like a Shinto deity. And Guyra is a western deity. It's possible the mysterious people of the east worship Seath like Shintoism in Japan. Whereas we know the Three Kingdoms came to worship the forest dragon, aka Guyra, and that is fitting because he is the literal source of the light that they consider holy (though the true source is the Moonlight sword which arguably existed before everything, and if there is any true source of goodness in the world it's the players who ultimately make away with the Moonlight and use it to their own ends; it's Light/Shadow so it bends all ways on the moral spectrum of law)
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PPS: Light magic isn't really magic. It's anti-magic. You could call it logic, but that just confuses the discussion of game play mechanics. It is linked to Earth magic (born of primeval matter and the proto-moral split of the overworld from the underworld) and the Magic stat still governs it... we call it Magic by convention, but really its more like Mind than Magic. There is an anti-magic for each element, but we'll probably never learn of the others, since the world of man is one born of Earth, and the world of King's Field mirrors the world of men, AKA reality. So were a different anti-magic to take root (only magic, illogic, prevents the anti-magic from coalescing into chaos, incompatible logic) you'd end up with a non-magical reality of a completely different design...
In other words, a logical world, but not one recognizable to real world physicists. In other words, alien worlds, that might find a home within one of H.P. Lovecraft's weird tales (edited: that's the internal logic anyway. To my mind the world of KF is not even a real world. Its always a VR world designed to more or less therapeutic ends. And that is why it bears such a resemblance to reality. Seath and Guyra are AIs used to guide the player towards some personal revelation like good cop bad cop therapists. When its all over the player has a better confidence and understanding of themselves. That is what the Truth Glass and Dragon Fruit represents... regardless if games don't possess a psychological underpinning they are reduced to joyride power fantasies, and its too much of a burden to accept the world of KF as a wholly coherent universe; after all, we are just men playing at god when we build our little toy worlds)
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You know if you followed this setup to its logical conclusion you come to the almost unavoidable realization...
If Jean was a prodigy with Light magic. And Guyra chooses him as his champion. Then you have to conclude that Jean was probably half Demon by some means. It might not sit well with everyone's impressions of Jean, but it would sure put the rest of Jean's story in a better light, or by that I mean it would make a lot more sense.
And I don't think it would be out of character for the series. It's always complex. And every lead character has fallen or met a tragic fate in the following game that includes them. Almost as if once they become an NPC they are shadows of there former selves.
I don't think the series would benefit from adding "Light Dragons" to the mix at all. And so Guyra's experimentation with Light is the only explanation for rare humans being born with Light magic. I know there were light mages in the past, but I think the creation of Demon's would've been long ago too.
(I just want to add that being a Demon or 1/Nth demon doesn't mean you are a bad guy. It just means you have built in light affinity proficiency. Demons could even be forerunners to more modern day humans... My working concept for the Ep.7 is there is a little bit of Demon in all humans, and that is actually how the half-demon character is born. Eg. both of his parents appeared to be full blooded humans, even still their kid clearly not. Not an uncommon occurrence. Also the vampire like ruling Demons do prey on humans, but there reasoning is they won't allow worms to sit on the top of the food chain, and they only drain hot blooded humans to the quick, because they feel that thins the herd, and its the hot blooded ones that make war. They tend to leave the other races alone since they are not warlike and do not bury their dead. I think that's interesting. We take it for granted that nothing preys on us, but its not that unnatural in nature, and I think the elves would relate to it and approve of it)
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Here is a new section (half filled out) on magic. My goal here is to solidify the relationship of Light magic to the other four elementary magics, and to introduce the Void affinity, which is absolutely non-magical. Still in a techno-setting the Void affinity can represent purely physical stuff that looks like magic. Indeed in a world devoid of magic (sound familiar?) only Void exists (edited: its also worth clarifying that Light magic is in no way synonymous to light itself. Ie. as defined by Wikipedia)
Magic
Magic is believed to draw its power from the existence of Dragons. Its opposite is logic. But no man comprehends such things. When logic meets magic the two are annihilated in an exquisite show of light and power that is said to mark the death of dragons. A mere guess on the half of men. Or a hypothesis, as modern men of science will say. Men of the cloth have their own name for this phenomenon: Holy, most treasured, but little do they understand that in truth; it is the safety of logic (from magic) that brings them peace of mind, their true object of reverence.
Fire
Water
Wind & Air
Earth
Light & Shadow
Light, sometimes called Holy, is relatively new form of magic known to men.
It owes its existence in the world to the Earth Dragon Guyra; he himself being a creature of pure logic, aimed to temper magic with his logic at great cost to his own kind. Earth dragons are known to be solitary and untrusting in nature. But even among earth dragons Guyra is singularly despised for his unapologetic treachery.
Light magic is incompatible with the elementary magics, Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth. It floods the dark with light just as well as is it hews shadows from blinding light. If carefully focused light is able to wreak destruction unrivaled even by the elementary magic of fire.
The most feared magi of light do not shudder to command slumbering demons from the depths of The Void.
The Void
When magic is annihilated completely by logic, what remains is only void. Within this void what logic survives (if any) will continue to exist. Although outwardly void appears to be the stuff of nothingness. Needless to say, for anything of magic the void is a hostile place. Even dragons must be commanded to venture near.
Technically Light is Earth Logic. But all logic is dormant where there is no magic. Other logics can exist, but they would appear alien to us, and cannot exist alongside other logic, because each kind of logic (or a blending) fills space like a gas, and that's how you end up with a reality that follows rules of law. The absence of law is chaos, or swirling logics. Magic is the only thing that can put logic into order. So it is up to magic to decide the nature of a reality.
In our case it is Earth magic that won the war of magics. Also a word on why Light or Holy magic summons demons. For one thing, the other magics summon dragons, so by rule Light magic needs to be able to summon awesome creatures too. But there is also precedent for this in human legends, and I try to mirror human legends as much as possible in my attempts at divination of the KF universe here...
Anyway, it is told that King Solomon (presumably a holy man) summoned/commanded "demons" to construct his architectural feats and what have you. Also in Japan[ese], the word for demon is pretty open ended. Many games (and such) will refer to angels (and gods/kami too) as demons without distinction. It can pretty much refer to anything that demonstrates agency but is neither animal (we are including man here) or vegetable so to speak. It's true the same kanji that is used in the word Evil is in there, but that just denotes suspicion, as any man would be right to doubt an unnatural being.
MODERATED: If you are the president of Egypt you'll probably be offended by this. (http://www.swordofmoonlight.com/bbs/index.php?topic=659.msg8763#msg8763)
PS: As for souls. NPCs don't have souls. Only player characters have souls. In other words its a non (as in meta) issue. And there is no soul collection (a la Dark Souls) in King's Field games!
EDITED: Also its pretty obvious to see that Demons in their purest form are the equal opposites of Dragons. I think this is fitting. There is a history in science of anthropomorphising theories by referring to them as Demons. Both because of their logical, and often flawed, qualities... and also because they would keep theoreticians from getting any sleep and haunt them throughout their waking hours. Anyway I like the idea of blending KF with science like qualities. It brings it closer to unification with the likes of Armored Core, and makes it a fertile bed for many more kinds of settings and themes. Plus it just brings it ever closer to the shared human experience (if that means anything to you)
EDITED: In fact half-demons like half-dragons probably need not even have any visual differences whatsoever. So if you are born with elementary magic you are half-dragon, and if you are born with light magic half-demon, and if both, then you are half-and-half :rainbow:
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^Also just because the other magics are not filled out yet. If you are wondering where traditional necromancy and such fits in. That is all part of the elementary magics. Pretty much all of the magics are dualistic. So the undead is Earth magic. Ghosts are Wind magic, as are skeletons suspended in air like puppets.... or Water magic when suspended in water. Wraiths (ghosts with qualities of fire) are Fire magic of course!
EDITED: And if you really need something that looks like black clouds that isn't storm clouds, that can be Void, because the magic would basically be like the vacuum of space in magic bullet form or whatever. You could do that as a Holy magic too if it is balls of shadow or darkness or whatever. Shadow is good for invisibility and stuff like that. Fog (or Mist: Fire+Water) would be the next best thing for that.
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Here are some tidbits on possible 2 player play in games V and VI...
I think each game could have a different kind of "multiplayer" game play. The original trilogy games it seems like would be more difficult to work multiplayer into. You could imagine additional players assuming the roles of the surviving knights in the first game. Maybe there could just be straight up 2 player gameplay in KF2 since it's 2 after all, where you can start the game with another survivor of the shipwreck not far away. A cabin boy or something. In KF3 Mina (is it Lyn?) seems like the obvious pick. Anyway I believe in traditional 2 player games. But in KF1 there are more than one spare knights, so it could be an exception just for the heck of it.
I also like passive 2 player where someone can sit down and just take over the 2nd player character just for fun. You can also asynchronous play where the characters do their own thing on their own time. Anyway it wouldn't be single screen play obviously.
So right, my best concepts for V is player 2 is a teenage blonde (if not Asian) boy who is a half-monster. He looks normal except for webbed digits and he can breath underwater to assist with underwater trials, and to save Player 1 if you drown.
In VI the game play is different. Player 2 is a demon huntress whose task it is to hunt down and capture Player 1. So its kind of competitive play, but shes still a romantic interest (the Player 2 characters usually are)
She'd probably have some help from other demons in her posse that would assist her the same way the animals assist Player 1. I think Player 1 carries the Moonlight sword with him for some reason. His job is to clear out monsters from villages maybe, and its the best tool for the job. Plus its very light. I dunno. I think he is captured though mid game, his falcon flies the Moonlight away, so you can't use it to escape captivity or something. Then maybe you get convinced that the demons are trying to help, and things turn coop, and you race back to the castle too late to stop what happens...
The castle is on Melanat. The Moonlight and Dark Slayer are brought together and somehow that revives Guyra and Seath. But Melanat is surrounded by demons. Milia leads the demons, and is scolded by Guyra for impersonating him (Guyra is dead in KF3: Milia is impersonating him in KF3 and KF1; as Guyra created her to do, but not after his death) and ultimately since Guyra has the upper hand Seath is sealed inside Melanat by the demons and Guyra. The whole island is sealed off from the rest of the world, along with most of the key characters. So that in VII you find the world remade by demons, magic is tightly regulated, and part of the game probably involves breaking the seal and letting magic (Seath) loose to reshape the world...
I think Guyra wants people to forget about dragons (magic) and so he inhabits Solomon like Seath inhabits Jean in KF3. Solomon serves as a foil to VII's Player 1, who will probably be named Damien. Damien has Frostbite and Firebrand, and Solomon has the Moonlight and Dark Slayer, and somehow they face off at some point for dramatic effect. VII is millennia after VI, so that would make Solomon (Guyra) appear to be immortal.
PS: I think Giants would be prominent in V. Since the earth is flooded like a biblical deluge event, the Giants would all awaken from under the earth (otherwise they would drown) and there would be no plants after the millennia long drought, so it would be up to the elves to take their ark like life banks and transplant the plants and animals there to the highlands. Which will prove difficult because its hard to tell plants from monsters, and monsters would be planting themselves like weeds. So the villagers would have to work to weed out the monsters so the plants have a chance...
I think the Giants know about the demons on the other continent. Because they can communicate when they dream somehow while they've been hibernating all of the time since the trilogy. I don't know what would happen if lots of water flooded over a planet, but it seems to me like it would take a while for it to soak into the ground. So maybe there is just some time before the continent reemerges. It could still be largely underwater along the shores in VI, to make the continent appear different from it does in III.
I imagine Dwarves being more like Vikings. They could be master ship builders in a pinch. Since the humans wouldn't be up to the task having no memory of water. There could be some old pirate ships dry docked at Melanat. But you wonder if they'd be seaworthy or not. Maybe the dwarves could build replicas of them. The captain of the boat the players ride on could be a dwarf I reckon.
EDITED: Maybe Guyra revives Guyra and Seath in VI by possessing Solomon then and there. Of course that's just how they'd manage to materialize themselves. Probably they were somehow revived by the swords being recharged (since they are mirrors of one another) and then they just have to be scraped against each other to exorcise the dragons. Maybe you can think of something better. I can't.
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^Ooh, a sweat ending with a proper boss fight to end a trilogy. In VI you race to Melanat just in time to see Seath and Guyra reemerge. You have to race inside to reclaim the swords, and then everyone fights both dragons together. And just when it looks like they are both defeated, the island is sealed, and we learn in VII (new trilogy) that the Guyra in that fight was a false image made by Milia, and really Guyra slipped out in the form of (possessed) Solomon :drool:
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Ive been keeping tabs on your posts Holy, the stuff you have laid out really sounds awesome, there is part of me that hopes somehow you will inspire yourself to make the game. I know you have posted that you would be looking for someone to do alot of the actual game creation around your ideas and so on, and although such a person may exist in this world, finding one to do the game justice to your vision, with such a custom tool as SOM might just be an unreachable goal. It would be sad to see your visions and talents never realized, I would very much like to play a game solely created out of your head.
Please don't take this as an argumentative post, I am merely trying to encourage you build your game the way you see fit so we can all enjoy it, and not idly sit by and hope for its completion by some miracle worker someday :)
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^Games like these require hundreds of people to make them. It'll be impressive if something like this can be done with just a dozen full time people. It's not a question of hoping for a miracle. Unless you'd call people working together a miracle.
To be honest I didn't see this coming. But just so you can wet yourself, know that I am well committed to it at this point. If I wasn't I wouldn't be posting it here in an attempt to seek approval. It would be a p.r. nightmare if I am making these games without the backing of KF fans. Never mind wresting an entire IP away from its commercial enterprise :1zhelp:
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Here is a more solid argument why Guyra is associated with the Dark Slayer, and Seath the Moonlight Sword. To me this represents the taijitu and the only reason Guyra can be so logical is because his magical qualities exist in the Dark Slayer and vice versa.
But a better and more obvious way of looking at it, is the swords are the dragons prisons. So the Dark Slayer is Guyra's prison, and the Moonlight is Seath's. So when the dragons are exorcised from the swords Seath springs from the Moonlight and Guyra from the Dark Slayer (fyi: this prison angle is the original idea buried in this post)
They are kind of like the hearts of the dragons too. They kind of have a deal to keep the swords away from each other so they can be immortal. But also the way to undo the dragons is always guaranteed to be part of the universe. If one dragon is slayed, the taijitu (harmony) is disrupted, so catastrophe follows, like in KF3.
This also explains why Guyra would opt to seal Seath up rather than dispose of him; edited: in VI. Both dragons I think want more than anything to be the only dragon, but they have to accept that their fates are intertwined.
PS: To my mind the swords have poetic meaning. Dark Slayer means enlightenment, to slay the dark, so Guyra is all obsessed with logic, so his thing is to bring about an age of reason. And Seath's thing is magic. He wants to bring magic back into the world, and bring to an age of whimsy or whatever, where nothing is certain or knowable. So in our beloved Moonlight sword there is a kind of aura of magic, but also, I see Guyra as being interested in truth, and Seath being interested in lies. Or virtual reality. So the Moonlight has a kind of falseness to it, like the light reflecting off the moon. It looks like the moon is a light source, but it really isn't. I like to associate these two demi-gods with Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu, which I consider the archetypes of Lucifer and Satan (the original angels that spawned all angels) for literary significance. So I consider Seath and the Moonlight to be satanic (edited: obviously not in a knee jerk bogey man sense) in that they create virtual realities that compete with reality. I do think the Moonlight is based on Stormbringer too. Which is literally Satan. I think this wider perspective anyway gives the Sword of Moonlight a much larger literary cachet. And ties it into the real world. Which authors could use to make very interesting games that go way beyond the likes of standard King's Field fair.
PPS: So together the dragons and swords are like the eyes of Horus. The Moonlight is the moon, light and shadow, or how we describe film, and art, photography. And the Dark Slayer is truth, the sun, not only is it the bolt of lightning slaying the night sky, it is the sun literally extinguishing the night. And the moon reflects the light of the sun. Just as art, fiction, reflects truth. Mind you King's Field is just a game, and to my mind any KF game is set in a VR setting, so we can have this understanding, and also recognize that it is an understanding simply built into the game by its equally fictional creators, just as Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, is a fiction be she Dorothy of Oz or Dorothy of Kansas.
EDITED: I also guess that would make Dark Slayer Mournblade. And just to be clear I have little doubt in my mind that King's Field's designer(s) had these swords in mind when planning their trilogy. Planning these trilogies out. Neither can I fathom the trilogy being improvised completely game by game. It seems like they'd all have to be planned out in advance. It's just too tempting to go into games two and three when planning a single game.
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Does anyone have ideas about the original trilogy? I gotta admit that I really have zero understanding of it. My interpretation is no better than matching meaning to moving pictures.... kind of like how foreign films would be be translated before people got all concerned about preserving the meaning of the things being said.
I have this (http://www.swordofmoonlight.net/kf/)
Seems to suggest that there was a great war, if not the first, the last, that somehow ended thanks to a warrior called "The Dragon of the Forest" who is either faerie or demon. And a prophecy that they would one day return. The only way to read that insinuation wise is Jean is the beginning of a prophecy, and a resurrection of "The Dragon of the Forest". It says he will possess a magical weapon, so that can only be the Moonlight. It seems to prophesizing his rise to king as a kind of savior.
Then what happens in 2? I can't figure out why there is a burst of blue light. I know a little while back to mark the Tsunami some blue lights were aimed up into the sky in Japan. I don't know if that is tradition or what. But pictures in Time magazine looked like how that is described in the intro. Is that Guyra being summoned? Or just a distress signal to get people to come to the island?
Anyway, it seems like a force of knights investigate the island, and then Aleph shows up later. How did the Moonlight get to Guyra? Seems like Dias would have had to stolen away with it, and brought it to Melanat. Can we assume Guyra is controlling Dias? Seems like deciding to go to Melanat of all places is an odd decision.
Dias' title is Pope. Does that make his minions Monks? They kind of look like monks to me. Who were they originally? Did they guard the mines or something? It certainly looks like a Lovecraftian cult setup. And Guyra in KF2 definitely looks like a Lovecraftian monster.
Do people worship the Dragon of the Forest? Or is that just an old prophecy? Do they associate it with Holy magic? If so is Pope a proper title? Like Dias thanks he's found the object of worship. But presumably the object is not quite what you'd expect, still its the object nonetheless? Maybe the "monks" just think they're taking orders from the Holy Dragon of the Forest.
It seems like if Dias can control night and day (I don't think that would survive a remake) then that would be the work of powerful light magic you'd think. Almost like the island is lost out of time or something. That would be reason enough to follow his orders. Especially if monsters rule the night.
I am not sure it adds up however you cut it. Its difficult to assign motivations to Guyra. Maybe Guyra and Seath are bored and want to die so they can recharge or something, but won't allow each other the favor. Or maybe they want champions to try to kill the other because if they tried to fight that would somehow bring them back together. Like maybe that's how Valad ensured they'd need to gather armies around themselves.
There's definitely a lot to unpack here. Even armed with the definitive (read: literally translated) story they might not add up to much. But how can we make them add up to something is the bigger question?
PS: I like the idea of the monster Seath in KF3 not really being Seath, but being a kind of half Valad half Seath thing. Like if when Guyra is killed in KF2 the Dark Slayer could get stuck in him, so he can't come back. Then that means half of Valad is restored. Then that just leaves Seath. So you take the Moonlight and kill the Seath half in KF3. The Moonlight seals off Seath...
So that in a new IV (see subject post) can have the player find both swords stuck in the roots of the Dragon tree, where the roots would vaguely resemble the dragons. The Dark Slayer would be in a subterranean chamber that is inaccessible until game V where the continent is flooded, so water has filled up the caves, and you can explore more of the chambers that way.
Then you wouldn't get to see Seath proper until VI, but VI would come before III anyway, so it wouldn't really matter. Guyra in II could be more interesting than in VI because he could have those qubits each form a magical field so that you'd have to take them out to break down his defenses against the dark slayer. Plus in VI as planned Guyra would be Milia making an illusion, so he would be easier to best.
EDITED: It's possible "Dragon of the Forest" could be read as the person possessing the Moonlight. Plus there is the special armor in KF1 that is sealed off, that is Forest Dragon Armor or something. So to say the least a man once wore it that must have been the so-called "Dragon of the Forest". Maybe Guyra is just trying to steal that title because he happens to be a dragon??? I dunno. I like the idea of the warrior being a Dark Elf that escaped from Melanat with other Dark Elves that were enslaved by High Elves, and made their home in the northern forests surrounding the Veld sea carrying on their worship of Guyra in the form of Milia who would act as an emissary since Guyra cannot leave Melanat for some reason (but I like the idea of him being a faerie/demon even better, which would make him one of Guyra's (proposed) experiments like Milia... in theory it could even be Milia if she is that badass and we just don't know it)
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^Here is a solid explanation for the Blue Light...
Say the intro movie for KF2 is from the perspective of Dias (or something else) who has stolen the Moonlight sword. And then when this person or thing sees Melanat through the porthole of the tower, somehow they are teleported to Melanat. And if the Moonlight itself didn't do that. Then at the least when they land on Melanat, if they were shot down from the sky, then the blue light would have been the light of the Moonlight sword just as if it was thrust down from the heavens.
I kind of like the Moonlight sword as a key to the heavens. A means of communicating with the gods or whatever. That's how it is proposed to work in new IV anyway as explained. You need someway to get Elfos and Elwin's attention. So you basically take the sword to the top of the large island where there are a bunch of pure elves keeping all of the plants and animals alive. And somehow they know how to use the sword to contact Elfos on the moon, and she relays the message to Elwin (the sun) and the player gets teleported to space, blue light in reverse, where you have audience with the two of them, and they agree to repair the atmosphere. I imagine that entails springing for some Water and Wind dragons, otherwise we might never get to interact with living dragons.
Anyway, if the sequence of events went this fast. It seems like the Monks would've already been servants of Guyra before Dias arrives. And then Guyra would be controlling Dias. So really he may as well be Guyra. But I think whenever the dragons control people this way they really shouldn't have complete control, because things are much more flexible that way. It makes sense if they could convince Valad to go schizophrenic, and fork into the two dragons, they could mind control a man like that. Maybe it was the mind control alone that drove Valad to madness, and that's reason enough for the Dragon tree starts making monsters. And maybe the dragons only arrived a little bit later, like the final two monsters to emerge.
Semi-offtopic: another idea I like is linking the elementary elements to metaphysical things. So that somehow souls are fire, and bodies are earth, and wind is masculine, and water is feminine... together they produce life, or an atmosphere suitable for life. Earth is the life, or earthly delight, and fire is the spark of life.
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What would be messed up is if Milia was the so-called Dragon of the Forest. And Jean was Milia's kid, but Hauser never told him. And Hauser never knew Milia was a fearie/demon :eek:
I like strong woman progenitors. Maybe Guyra got tired of looking for champions and just made one :1782:
EDITED: It would be pretty sweet if in VII Solomon was the leader of the Vampires even though he is a man (possessed by Guyra) and Milia is like his daughter (literally being the creation of Guyra) and the prototype for the vampires. That's an easy setup to explain why the vampires are all immortal assuming they are.
PS: The nickname Dragon of the Forest could have come from Guyra fighting by the warrior's side, or being available in summoned form with earth magic. Assuming the dragon isn't Seath or some dragon X no one has ever heard of (let's not go there)
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EDITED: If that were all true, you'd have to assume that the role played by Dias was always meant to be played by Jean, but somehow things didn't work out as planned (edited: oooh, Seath got to Jean first... Jean is even possessed in the story in the KF2 manual before the game even begins, that much I do know :1782: :1782: :1782:)
PS: Maybe Dias is a backup half-and-half kid. He has all kinds of magic attacks. Maybe Milia had twins (wouldn't want her to go through two pregnancies; assuming the kids weren't born in those vats :tongue: <(hey if I was Milia you'd bet that they would've been))
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FYI: My gut interpretation of KF2 is Aleph is acting, unwittingly, as an agent of Seath. I don't think Seath has enough roles to play, and it only makes sense that if Aleph just kind of wanders onto the scene with no real motivation, and ends up slaying Guyra with the Dark Slayer, made by Leon Shore (who may even be Seath in my book) the only explanation is he is being driven by Seath.
I don't know the dialog, but I just don't buy it that Guyra wants someone to come to him and kill him and take the Moonlight sword that he just worked so hard to obtain, after just having given it to Jean in KF1. The only thing that makes any sense at all in fact, is Seath possesses Jean, we know this as fact due to the end of KF3, and its even explained first thing in the KF2 manual that Jean is possessed by an unseen force from the East if I am not mistaken, which is a land that is not well known. That even lends to the idea of Seath residing in the east and being a Japanese like Shinto nature dragon since we know stuff from the east is Japanese (I'd have to check the manual to be sure its the east, but a direction is given, Jean looks out the window in that direction feeling an ominous spirit enter his being... if it isn't the east I'd rewrite it that way)
So Guyra must get the Moonlight away from possessed Jean, so he sends Dias to do that. And then Aleph foils Guyra's designs, and in doing so curses the kingdom. Its so weird, but its like the bloody games are puzzle waiting to be deciphered. At first they look impossible to make sense of. It's like From's man designed them, but wanted to keep everything secret, which is admirable in a very real way, but not really a luxury we have in the days of the internet and people doing it for themselves (to be honest: it's spooky, but sometimes it almost feels to me like it was supposed to be unraveled this way)
PS: On the subject of gut interpretations. I will freely admit, that my gut feeling is that Guyra is really the good guy in this cycle, even though every step of the way he looks like the bad guy. I think in theory in an alternate universe Seath could've been the good guy, and Guyra the bad guy. But I am of the mind, that it isn't really a situation where both dragon demi-gods are bad guys. I think Guyra is genuinely good, or at least trying to be, and the only hope if there is to be a hope, but the optics are just bad. I think that's why he's so ugly design wise. The moral of the story is the truth isn't always pretty, heck maybe it never is if it's not supposed to be... and it isn't always obvious either. I think truly its a modern morality play. Seath is the old ways, Guyra is the new ways. He represents transparency, justice, and uncompromising honesty. In other words Guyra is the dragon of reality, and Seath is the dragon of irreality...
Guyra offers the Moonlight Sword, a part of Seath, as his ultimate gift, art, etc, all the things we toil to enjoy in the modern world. And Seath offers the Dark Slayer, a part of Guyra, or the promise of enlightenment in an age of darkness, the apple in the garden of Eden, the old world. That's just my interpretation. I hope it doesn't ring too sacrilegious to KF. I don't even know you can call it an interpretation given the dearth of my understanding. But its my inspiration. Its how I hear the music.
Ultimately to me the Earth Dragons represent the entire spectrum of earthly delight. I think its unique among the elements in that way. Its the last of the four too. So that gives it a certain kind of specialness. Like the cherry on top (and Light, well that's when you get to scarf the whole thing down without a care in the world :cloud9:)
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This is sweet...
The Google translator is getting a bit better with Japanese...
"King was watching the eastern forest forever staring into the distance as far away from the window of the castle, or to predict possible future tragedy."
Also the place where the evil assaulting the king is coming from a hick village (with a purposely unpronounceable name I think... there is so much word play in the names I tell you. I remember looking, and I couldn't find anything resembling this name in Japanese) in the east. The east is a place the three kingdoms fear, like I suspected. I think of it as mainland China, and suspect there is an isolated kingdom just like Japan on an island off the mainland that even the three kingdoms doesn't have any kind of relations with, or know anything much about (I think maybe Jean is on the eastern border of Verdite, or maybe its just a really really small place, but the east of wherever he is at is described as a untamed thicket incompatible with civilization... to be honest it seems like Elegria can't be that big to be able to see Melanat in the KF2 intro from a tower off the island, presumably the tower is even wherever the main castle of Verdite is situated, which could be in the north, but not in the north of the continent... but were it up to me I'd say the tower in the FMV was just an outpost that allowed for the best view of Melanat for purposes of teleporation, possibly a lighthouse)
This kind of seals it to me that Seath is a dragon with Shinto like qualities. And I think like Shintoism, he represents old conservative ways, that can't even be compared to modern western values. In other words he is magical, and also represents nature. I like to liken him to Satan, but your mileage may vary. There is a long tradition of ascribing nature to the devil. Because it is so brutal and harsh and inhospitable, but most of all devoid of morality mainly. Might makes right. But I think this is offensive to a lot of peoples sensibilities, so I prefer to describe Seath as a Shinto nature dragon of magic and the four elements. Still that links him to paganism which is also linked to Satan, but never mind. People turn pale when you say Satan nowadays. I don't think its the same in Japan though.
Casting Seath that way kind of changes the tone of the High Elves too. They could be more like hopelessly rigid pre-WW2 Japanese socialites than bankrupt holy roller aristocrats (which if nothing else would feel more elfin to a western audience)
Also Google's translation reminded me that its best to spell Egrek with a Y. I'm going with Ygrech, to make it appear more Grecian. That's the esthetic I like for it.
Also the last bit in the manual mentions that Aleph is a friend of Jean. Both being royalty. Even though presumably Jean is new royalty, so I am not sure they could've been friends for all that long. I think casting Aleph as a royal also gives him dubious qualities. Because we tend to not think highly of royalty. I think he's a Parsifal figure honestly. The idea of giving a player a game where if they really know the story arc know that everything they are doing to progress it is really a fools errand is very interesting. It really drives home that you are playing a role. As in, "This is first and foremost a story telling medium (as art should be and has always been) and not a vessel for your ego."
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Disclaimer: one piece that doesn't fit is: if Dias made away with Moonlight and teleported to Melanat with it. Then he would've gone alone instead of with Nola and Fei. Maybe that's why you go back to Melanat at the end of Dark Destiny, makes you wonder what brought them there in the first place :confused:
Don't know if that means the monks were already under Guyra's wing, or if Dias recruited them. I kind of like the idea Dias infiltrating the cult at first out of curiosity, but it still doesn't explain why the three of them were on Melanat of all places. Actually what would work best I think would be if Nola and Fei were summoned by Dias for company; either unwillingly or without knowing what they were getting into. Or if Nola was and Fei came with to protect her. That seems like just the thing a Pope would do, and nothing else really makes sense. Plus it makes Nola and Fei much more sympathetic characters with genuine motivations :goodnight:
PS: At dmpdesign I realize this version of events means Nola and Fei could not make cameos in Dark Destiny, but then neither could a telling of these events take place on Melanat. Hmmm, I seem to recall some accounts of Dias. I see there are 3 more pages from KF2 that I didn't put into the Google translator. I gotta tie this stuff off for the night, but maybe they will have some insights in the morning.
Its funny how writing stuff down in forum post really gets the ideas flowing. I honestly had zero ideas about the original trilogy before tonight :rolleyes:
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There is no mention of Dias in the manual except for news of a man calling himself the Pope appearing on Melanat. Presumably that would mean that Dias was up to no good on Melanat before the disappearance of the Moonlight sword, but it seems that the force of knights were sent before the Moonlight sword disappeared. So Aleph arrives just after. I think it says demons wrecked his vessel, but I am not sure. It says Aleph happened to study with Jean because Hauser was a renowned swords master and trained the royals in swordsmanship.
PS: I haven't had thoughts about a game VIII, but it seems to me that playing as Milia would be a good way to go, because I don't see anyway to continue from the story of VII as conceived so far. I think maybe the vampires aren't really immortals, they just keep producing new bodies in those vats and somehow transfer memory over. But maybe by game VII they have perfected immortality with science like techniques. They have a millennia or so to work with, so their science should be more powerful than what we have to work with.
Anyway, I think since Milia is kind of a constant. It would be very interesting to bookend the series by playing through her entire life more or less. If she was the Dragon of the Forest, you'd start with that trial. And just kind of see everything through her eyes, until you catch up with the time of the third trilogy, and then play out the rest of her story. I see her betraying the dragons ultimately, so to create a world without dragons that looks like our world. I think this would be the natural end of the series, 9 games seems like a good number to stop at. If something came after it would be set in a contemporary like world without magic anyway. Which could be interesting too (maybe that could be spinoff series called KF X)
Milia seems like the only character that would have the authority to break the proposed seal on Seath. Maybe she ventures inside and finds sympathy with the people living in there. BTW. Seath does kind of sound like Set. Just saying. I think Milia would be a kind of mother nature figure if she ended the age of magic, which seems fitting if she is a faerie / of the Forest.
The 9th game would have you playing a new character. I think there's never been a showdown between the Dark Slayer and Moonlight. That seems like the perfect way to end a 9th game. Player 1 would wield the Moonlight. And I see it ultimately shattering the Dark Slayer into many shards, and then the vampires all swarm onto the shards each taking one away. So that's how magic and monsters survive into the modern world. And the Moonlight sword is buried somewhere. I think it would be a good gesture to set this game in the Easter kingdom that would look like Japan and figure out where From's offices are and bury the Moonlight there.
Then the 9th game could end with images that look like the modern world, and some kid making a game with the Sword of Moonlight program. I like little touches like that. The End?
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^I think there might even be some value in having Dias reborn (and redeemed) as a PC in IX. Somehow the dragons could revive him and Aleph (in a desperate attempt to avoid their fates) so that Dias wields the Moonlight and Aleph the Dark Slayer in the final throw down.
I reckon that could even take place in the Coliseum of Melanat like in KF2. KF2 being the best of the original games it seems fitting to end things with a nod to it. It also seems like Dias should get to be a PC, and there is only one game left.
After the fight Dias could keep traveling the world until the Moonlight runs out of light, and end up in the Eastern kingdom, dying there buried with the Moonlight. His adventures traveling with the Moonlight could be games to be made on the side.
Maybe Aleph could hookup with Milia or something. Doesn't seem like he'd need to die in the Coliseum, and that would humanize Milia in the end. Maybe suggesting that even she is becoming devoid of magical qualities along with the rest of the world.
Still I think ultimately Milia would stay close to the surviving vampires. Would be a shame to just die off as human, though I can see why people would argue for that (wanna be a real girl) ending... but personally its more interesting to buck the cliche if you ask me. Maybe Aleph clings to biggest piece of the Dark Slayer connected to the hilt, and becomes a leader among the vampires.
I intend to draw up outlines here in a bit. 9 games seems like enough to me. Better to work on making them better (until the end of time) than going the Final Fantasy route of diminishing returns.
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Just like to ask, you've not mentioned Merlin, will you be adding him in? Im not sure why 'Merlin' is involved maybe the story writer thought the name was interesting, not knowing that the name Merlin is almost always associated with legends of King Arthur.
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I have heard from reliable sources that the KF2 and 3 stories did not originate at Fromsoft. The Japanese made a rather heavy handed attempt to adapt the stories in order to plug them into KF1, but From didn't really didn't care about story as they are a studio of programmers more than artists.
You seem to be looking for a finely crafted contiguous plot line between the trilogy, but it simply doesn't exist. The KF plots really just throw together enough loosely related points to justify gameplay scenarios, and leave the rest to be filled in by the player. They even changed the story in the KF1 remake that came with SoM and tried to make it work better with the plot of the later KFs.
In KF1 the premise was The Forest Dragon was a benevolent creature who stepped in to save mankind when needed. The Moonlight Sword was his creation given to his chosen warriors who fought for mankind. Myria was his servant.
In KF2 Jap, they changed it to: the Forest Dragon was a spiritual shadow of Guyra. Guyra actually lived in another dimension and was unable to break into the human world. He crafted the Moonlight Sword and other powerful artifacts (like the forest armor) to attract powerful warriors to himself in hopes to find one worthy to possess and thus jump into the human world. Myria was one of the faeries; they were created by him to serve and spy while he was trapped in the other dimension. The fairy released from the stone was of the same strain as Myria. Dias was one of the warriors attracted to Guyra by promises of power, but was just his dupe in that Guyra's only interest was in finding the most powerful body to possess. Guyra wanted the Moonlight sword back in order to lure more powerful warriors to him. It was the Kraken who sank Alfred's ship. The ones on the shore were babies but adults were huge. As I was saying, "demon" is a bad translation trend started in the early days of Japanglish game/anime imports. The monsters that accompanied the dragons and the Evil King (in KF1) were creatures from other dimensions who came through the "Doors to Darkness" that were opened by the villains activities.
By KF3, the Jap and US plots were mostly synchronized. Seath turns out to be just as usurious as Guyra and possesses King John for the same reason Guyra wanted to possess a human- to break out of his dimensions and into the human world.
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Just like to ask, you've not mentioned Merlin, will you be adding him in? Im not sure why 'Merlin' is involved maybe the story writer thought the name was interesting, not knowing that the name Merlin is almost always associated with legends of King Arthur.
I think Merlin was just an alternate translation for "Merril Ur". The limitations of Japanese make it almost impossible to accurately transcribe most Western names. It's usually just a matter of guessing what name was meant, especially when there isn't an existing spelling convention for a common name. Literally, the name Merril Ur is Meruleuru or Meluleulu- It's anybody guess what name was actually meant.
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Just like to ask, you've not mentioned Merlin, will you be adding him in? Im not sure why 'Merlin' is involved maybe the story writer thought the name was interesting, not knowing that the name Merlin is almost always associated with legends of King Arthur.
Is Merlin in one of the Agetec games? I don't think there is anyone named that in From's games. There is a Merlin like character who I don't think ever appears named Orladin, but I could easily be wrong about that.
But now that you mention it. While it was fresh in my head I just drew up a compact for a spinoff series called X (http://en.swordofmoonlight.org/wiki/King%27s_Field_Episode_IV:_Epilogue) which features Excalibur per the Frostbite and Firebrand back story. Which I will say flat out just to be clear, I just called it Excalibur for lack of a better idea, and because I think its cute for the KF universe to have some similarities to human culture. So that it looks a little bit artificial. I wouldn't be opposed to rejiggering the name of Excalibur and "Black Dragon Arthur" but I think the basic concept works well, and Arthur could just be a coincidence if not Excalibur.
But in X it takes place in the same universe of these games, but after magic is just about utterly erased from the universe. So all of the stories in the 9 game cycle would take place before the dawn of history. This is pretty much the same way the Elric saga and spinoffs work, which bear many similarities to KF. X is just an umbrella title for any number of dime store games that play by its basic rules.
Anyway I mention it because it features a literal King Arthur. So it would have Merlin too if you wanted to literally set a game in that period. But it also has a multiverse structure, so in theory Arthur to could be different, or non-existent. The sword Excalibur was regifted to Arthur basically, so it existed first in the KF cycle. Presumably the lady of the lake would be Milia or Elfos depending on how you wanted to play it if you really wanted to go there.
Disclaimer: I want to stress by the way, that I am just picking up the ball and running with it. I am committed to working on the game play mechanics I want to see implemented. But if you can make a better story, by all means do so. I won't get in the way. Its literally whoever wants it the most, and to be honest I really don't want it, but I know better than to not strike while the iron is hot. And someone has to do these things I reckon.
EDITED: And just to be clear, I am not challenging anyone to make a better sequence of events from scratch, though you can do that too. You are welcome, no encouraged, to walk all over anything presented here. In short I'd definitely prefer to see people just reworking these ideas, since they are my ideas, and I've never had an idea I don't like. But I will bow before you too if you can pull something better out of thin air.
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I have heard from reliable sources that the KF2 and 3 stories did not originate at Fromsoft. The Japanese made a rather heavy handed attempt to adapt the stories in order to plug them into KF1, but From didn't really didn't care about story as they are a studio of programmers more than artists.
I'm just a programmer too. That doesn't mean I can't craft a half decent story. Most anyone can make a better story than your standard video game fair. That said unless the story was first published as a light novel series or something, this seems unlikely to me. Unless there was a never released book series, because it was considered unfit for print.
Also From Software's games are always cryptic and noncommittal (at least up to here recently) this way when it comes to story. I am not so quick to dismiss them as you are.
You seem to be looking for a finely crafted contiguous plot line between the trilogy, but it simply doesn't exist.
I don't know if exists or not. If it doesn't then we'll have to make one. Assuming other people wanting to make KF games with SOM would like to have a coherent universe to play in. If not everyone can just make games without any respect for any other games, but part of me thinks that is not treating players fairly, and another part of me is certain that coherent games will be much better received by the public, and that will cast SOM in a better light.
Most of the story in the KF trilogy is told through histories and hearsay if not down right treachery. That part doesn't need and probably should not be coherent. But the underlying events should make an attempt to be coherent, or otherwise games should not pretend to do any more than borrow the KF esthetic the way Final Fantasy games have an overarching esthetic. That said at the very least if you make games with a direct continuity, like KF1~3 you owe it to the player to get things to agree. Especially since we hope that you continue to maintain your games after the initial release. You might like that games are like little jewels, but I prefer that authors have a sense of responsibility, and continue to improve and maintain the games so that future generations can enjoy even better games. Bottom line to me is its a shame to throw out a good idea just because the first run came out a little bit off. I expect this will be second nature for amateur game makers, because the first run is always going to be weak sauce.
EDITED: An I think its one advantage we have over the traditional publishing model, as long as traditional publishing remains a viable business model. So we may as well take advantage of it.
The KF plots really just throw together enough loosely related points to justify gameplay scenarios, and leave the rest to be filled in by the player. They even changed the story in the KF1 remake that came with SoM and tried to make it work better with the plot of the later KFs.
I wouldn't be surprised if the people working on it just couldn't remember or didn't do the best job. Companies have a way of shedding their historical memory. But that's beside the point. I am all for evolution. Even if its random mutation (aka. evolution)
In KF1 the premise was The Forest Dragon was a benevolent creature who stepped in to save mankind when needed. The Moonlight Sword was his creation given to his chosen warriors who fought for mankind. Myria was his servant.
In KF2 Jap, they changed it to: the Forest Dragon was a spiritual shadow of Guyra. Guyra actually lived in another dimension and was unable to break into the human world.
By spiritual do you mean the good half of Guyra? Otherwise your synopsis is close enough to my understanding. But my understanding is largely just based on things that I've heard over the years. Everything just blends together more or less. I hope after the trilogy is methodically converted over to SOM format that process will lay bear all of its minutia so that we can look at it more like biblical scholars with cold hard evidence to cite.
That said it can only inform any attempt to refactor everything. My hope is plain and simple to craft a compelling cycle of three trilogies that will get the public really excited like Harry Potter or something. I'd change things radically if it seemed like it would help.
That said we at least owe it to From to name drop some stuff here and there. My view of it is KF looks like its dead. We have a KF Making Tool. So lets make some KF. And lets make it a game changing event.
EDITED: Also, thanks for the synopsis.
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I'm just a programmer too. That doesn't mean I can't craft a half decent story.
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By spiritual do you mean the good half of Guyra?
I'm sure some programmers can write good stories. My "programmer" remark was a quote of how it was phrased to me. I took it to mean that Fromsoft didn't have an art department setup to handle story creation, but instead it was "tacked on" as a sideline of the programming team who weren't especially concerned with art development. But you can interpret the quote as you like.
I don't honestly remember the exact phrase used for the "Guyra spirit shadow" blurb, but I think it was the same phrase I translated as "astral projection" in KFJ where it was used to describe the indestructible Dark Magician look alike. It could also mean "spiritual shadow". I think they just mean an illusion generated from their mind, like a hologram projected from a remote location.
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My position is pretty simple. I'd just like King's Field to be a household name in the coming decades. Doesn't mean everyone has to play it, but I'd like it if everyone in the developed world knows what it is, or can say, yeah I've heard of that.
That doesn't mean dumbing it down to me. But it does mean it will need to be tightly packaged in at least one variety. I am all for people doing experimental stuff with it, but at least one version needs to look mainstream going forward. Maybe after it is established more complex treatments can be done from the ground up. But when I think about designing video games, I think it needs to have some elements that are familiar to people who've been playing games for the last few decades, and there is just something about video games that is not congruent with books. If you try to make a game that is like a book it won't work period. Something about it is just intrinsically more kitsch. That's why you really don't need an art dept...
But From must have had an art department. Who would make all of the beautiful artwork? And artists are creative types. I just can't imagine an investment of such magnitude being blundered through. In fact I think someone at From during the early days must have had powerful creative foresight. Because its the only studio that has really weathered the decades, and almost nothing was comparable even in its day.
Maybe its over thinking things that poisons game stories and narrative. Maybe KF works so well because no one wanted to commit to anything. But the twists to me are there for a reason. Even if they are decisions that were not made in advance. Twists have shock value, and make you reevaluate everything. That's one of the real strengths of the games. Even if I really don't know what is going on precisely. It's obvious that if it wasn't so unpredictable, that wouldn't be a problem.
PS: Astral projection is what I took you to mean. But I just wanted to be sure we are on the same page. The dragon in the SOM remake really doesn't look like Guyra, and is even much more kid friendly than the black dragon model in the original game. But I think part of the decision there was just that a Guyra monster wasn't going to be part of the package, so a more generic dragon was used, so that it would be more useful to people making different kinds of games.
I really like the idea of slowly but surely revolving the story around Milia. She seems like the character that's seen it all. So bringing the series full circle with a reveal that she is the Dragon of the Forest works I think. Plus it has a pseudo feminist appeal, and a hey you thought it would be a guy didn't you! Or at least a recognition that overtime a mysterious woman would obviously metamorphose into a man in the historical record is one of those nice touches that you only get in KF games. And then there is always, what's more obvious than Milia giving the player access to the final armor, than if it were originally her armor. That's a no brainer.
But I only mention Milia because I like the idea of her ability to produce these "astral projection" puppets. Maybe they are the real things, I dunno. I think there is value in them being mere illusions, but also the idea of her summoning Guyra to fight along side her is impressive too. That would seem less impressive if it really wasn't Guyra. But I am torn because in the story parts, where Milia appears alongside Guyra, I really like the idea that its simply Milia talking for Guyra, and he trusts her to be loyal, and he gave her (by creating her in those vats) the ability to do that just so she could play that role for him.
Anyway, if you played a game as Milia seeing the events throughout a long life. I can't think of any way to let a second player tag along in that, unless the second player got to control the monsters and stuff that she could summon as a special ability. Also player 1 could switch between who controls what, so AI would takeover Milia, unless she was sitting down or something.
It seems kind of wrong to make KF a two player series. Potentially even more. But I think playing together is important. Especially for children growing up in a home together. And it would be a good thing to develop that technology, and there's not better way to showcase it than in a KF flagship project.
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BTW: My take on Guyra is he is somehow imprisoned in Melenat, rather than being from another dimension.
I even like the idea that really he is imprisoned inside the Dark Crystal, and when you go to his map you are really entering the Dark Crystal or Dark Slayer that is in your inventory. But it doesn't have to be that way. And honestly I'd be almost inclined to not have Guyra restricted to that techno zone on Melenat. But it would be a shame to not include it because it is so striking. I don't have a real opinion here either way, but the idea of Guyra being imprisoned in the Dark Slayer, and him taking the Moonlight Sword in there with him, while Seath is imprisoned in the Moonlight, is really trippy. That would even give Seath a reason to wet his britches.
Ultimately I think the dragons are just ephemeral by nature. They can walk between worlds, because they don't really exist in the first place. Because they create existence, so for them to exist is silly. But they do also create bodies for themselves to inhabit from time to time. Transubstantiation (edited: also the gods in my mind are just the bodies of the dragons if the dragons were their cells so to speak. The true demons then are like axioms, platonic truths, like mathematics, that exist on a whole other level, but are kind of at odds with dragons, they can't coexist)
I think the Dragon Fountain and Dragon Tree are connected. Like the fountain waters the tree. In proposed game IV there is no more water on the planet. So survivors must drink the poison water of the Dragon Fountain to live. That said the hidden pure elves are still blessed by Elfos and Elwin and create artificial atmospheres where water exists. And I think demons who migrated by water to other continents during the dry spell have erected domes with artificial atmospheres. Some water also exists deep below ground enjoyed by dwarves. But anyway the Dragon Fountain is eternal, created by Elfos, first and foremost as a means to limit the movement of the pure elves who cannot live on fresh water, but also as a compact with Valad to water the Dragon Tree for the sake of sustaining vegetation which is not the domain of Elfos and Elwin.
EDITED: Possibly some monsters carry water with them that no one understands how they get hold of it. Perhaps they can even synthesize it with their magic. So people hunt them for their water to survive. Its not like the planet is completely without an atmosphere, but its close, rain almost never falls. It's like a desert everywhere prior to the flood to say the least. Maybe there are oasis around the fountains, but they are poison water oases, so only monsters will grow there. Much vegetation is really monsters.
I think the giants being original creations of Valad can live without water not being compatible with men (there are no half-giants and no women either) as can many kinds of monsters.
PS: I see the Dragon Tree as being an analogue to the world tree in Norse mythology. Its roots go every where underground and even plant themselves into the deep underworld right into molten magma. Its kind of like the child that all the gods had. Valad has very childlike qualities. Elfos is the mother, and Elwin is the father, and Sylval is Promethean (at least from the perspective of the dragons/gods, all began with him, and all will return to him)
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Here is an interesting perspective into the cosmology.
Say that the creation cycle always begins with magic, beginning with proto dragons gathering into proto-Sylval culminating in a consciousness.
Sylval then subdivides into the other gods, which may or may not even be Fire, Water, Wind, Earth. Then the gods order the universe.
And depending on how that ordering goes. From one of the elements two dragon demi-gods of magic and logic emerge due to a natural duality, which could be said to be the emergence of a morality.
The nature of the morality depends on the prevailing element. In our case that is Earth. There is probably a natural bias towards Earth based universes.
From here the logical dragon is fated to terminate the age of magic. The only question is how long this will take to come about, and how absolute will the termination be.
Dragons take a backseat to the Demons of logic. Their natural adversaries.
Until the new age of logic runs its course. At which point the whole process reverses. And favor is on the side of the magical demi-god.
So in a way, you could even have another set of trilogies on the back end. Where things are much more sympathetic to Seath. Logic has become passe. People are pining for magic. And so its time for the creation cycle to wind down once again...
And for that to happen first a new age of magic must emerge, and at its culmination Sylval will reemerge, and reboot the entire thing for another go.
Works for me. I think it would be interesting to see it all go down in reverse.
Offtopic: The whole Milia game play in VIII. I like this concept. Summoning monsters and controlling them would be a perfect opportunity to approach the problem of making all NPCs playable across the board from then on out. Be they animal, vegetable, or mineral. I like the concept of each game having a different goal in terms of game play so that no one feels the same, and each one achieves something new to add to SOM's utility belt... or if not that, at least showcases some little known feature. And more importantly expand the scope of what kind of games can be pulled off with SOM.
You see a lot of games innovating in this way for innovation sake. Like a new magic system or whatever in every Final Fantasy game. But I think the way to innovate is to just offer different ways to play essentially the same game. So if you want X flavor of coop you can play this game, or that game. Or if you want a wide open world you have III, or if you want a classic dungeon crawler, I. Or if you want a labyrinth II. Speaking of which I can't resist naming the player 2 character in KF2 Beth...
So if Aleph is A, then Beth is B. You wonder if Aleph is like "The First" like he is first in line to succession, and maybe his real name is one of the many other names he has tacked onto the end. Hebrew does go right to left. Just a thought :ninja:
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Just to clarify a few things that are fleshed out in the context of the series...
In kf3 it mentions twice that melanat can be seen off the northern shore of the mainland where the castle is located.
The easterners are those with the power of the wind... I would then assume they have an affinity with elfos.
Dias's army are reanimated verdite soldiers the truth glass as well as a couple villagers confirm this.
I suspect the two dragons aree unable to do direct battle as the game mentions many times they each choose champions such a galth fee and Merrill urr.
Hope this is of some use to you.
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The geography of Elegria the continent, from what I can gather of the (From Software) manuals is thus...
It's conceptually a diamond. Verdite is in the middle. Granitiki in the west. Ygrec in the south. The east is a feared wasteland that the 3 kingdoms do not even have maps of. I think anyway. It could be the deep south that is that. But there is not a kingdom in the east, so I'm going with that until I stumble across that bit in the manuals again.
I don't know where Elfos and Elwin are mentioned in game. I got them from a website, and have heard they are in strategy guides. Anyway, I like Elfos for water, and as a girl. I don't know if gender or elemental affinities are mentioned anywhere. I'd rather not change them. I think if one is going to be the moon and the other the sun (again just something I've spun of hay) the girl should be the moon. And moon I associate with the tides, so water, and Elwin sounds like a dude, and Elfos sounds like elf, and so I think the elf race should be named after the mother, or the female god. Plus usually sky/sea god couples put the guy in the sky because he is the top.
So Elwin is wind. I associate Wind with the west. Not the east. Because Granitiki uses Hebrew sounding words. So Jews are from the desert, wind and sun feel like desert to me, so I have the west is a desert kingdom.
Likewise I have the Asian tribes (with a proper kingdom on an island off the coast like Japan) being water. Because Japan has tsunamis, and fishing is a huge part of the eastern esthetic.
Anyway. I think this setup is better than anything in the original games. So I would give it primacy even if it disagrees with the games.
Finally the North of Elegria doesn't have a kingdom. It has a sea in the middle of it called Veld that is landlocked as far as I can tell. There is thick forest around the sea on all sides. And Melanat is in the middle of the sea. I think Veld and Verdite are a play on dialects. In other words, the local dialect of Verdite eventually drifted until it was pronounced Verd instead of Veld, and ite, probably means something in addition to the general vicinity.
Its possible that Verdite is closer to Veld in the north than being strictly in the middle of the continent. But Veld is a place where people pilgrimage to during the summer months where people bathe in the beaches and camp out. Its a tradition to bring the peoples of the kingdoms together to encourage peace and probably to discourage inbreeding or whatever. Also the kings meet there to discuss international affairs.
My impression on the champions is they just want to decide who to let carry their swords and lead their armies. I think originally they led two armies of men (including half elves and dwarves) against one another in a great war. So you'd have both sides fighting with the dragons visible on the battle field and making strategic decisions. So the champions were like standard bearers for moral. One dies and they find a new one...
But that time is long past. And only the elves of Melanat carried on the memory of the dragons. And even they are long gone in KF2.
PS: Since I haven't mentioned it. I like the idea that Meryl (or Merril) and Merrel, are the same word that is a title for the fountain maiden depicted in the Dragon Fountain on Melanat and in the Seath idols. Its a word chosen because its one of the few words that the pure elves and men share in common pronunciation wise. Its just fun with words. But I think a good explanation for Meryl in KF2 is she is or was the current fountain maiden. And that's how she can move around the island easily through secret passages, which only fountain maidens can do. Basically the maidens are ambassadors since the pure elves never interact with others on the island except for the maiden.
Anyway, and then in times when the island was more populated, the men (half breeds etc) would assign a guard to the fountain maiden called Merrel Ur. I don't know if it would be a company of guards, or just a single man. Probably a company. But anyway, eventually that just became a generic title for the most accomplished warrior among the high elves. And then the Merrel Ur that became the final champion of Seath over time led to the confusion between the fountain maiden and Seath. Until the high elves began to think they were one in the same.
Anyway, the only alternative to this explanation is Seath deliberately masquerades as a woman. Or just that there is no explanation.
PPS: Just on Dias' army as you say. They don't look like Verdite soldiers to me. Obviously they don't look like the group dispatched to the island. But anyway to me Verdite is a very metropolitan kingdom but especially a fusion of the Franco-German and English empires. To me his army looks almost eastern if not at least more like a religious order than regular soldiers. If they weren't already doing something on Melanat they wouldn't have all of those uniforms handy. Plus I am pretty sure that the island is considered to be cursed. People only go there to risk their lives to mine crystals. So it seems like they'd have to be a cult or religious order of sorts already established on the island. They don't even bear a resemblance to the townspeople or miners, but still I like their look.
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^Just to be clear on some things...
I don't know why the East is associated with Wind. I think there is the Japanese sword in KF2 and maybe KF3 too? That may have Wind magic.
Regardless. Just like all of the peoples are half-breeds, there is no strict division of elements by region. Even the Earth Dragons breath fire, and stuff like that. Seath has all magics even though he is an Earth dragon.
When I say Wind is in the East etc. That refers mainly to the period of the Dragon Kings (and Knights) which goes way back. Each king was seated in one corner of the continent, possibly installed by dragons or gods. And that period of high magic influenced the geography and division of the races.
That's why there are races with distinct characteristics, languages, and habitats to this day anyway, despite all of the interbreeding.
PS: It's on page 2 or something. But the Dragon Kings are a setup for game V. Basically there are giant crystals in the four corners of the continents. Only the Dark Slayer can open the doors to them. And it can find them like a compass. You must visit each one to rekindle the Dark Slayer. The Dark Slayer itself is the Dark Crystal, which was originally a portable key linking the four crystals of the four kingdoms held by the king of the kings whose throne was somewhere beneath the cemetery in KF1.
You also needed the Dark Crystal to visit one of the larger crystals. So that it was like a key (presumably the gods arranged for all of that)
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Just logging another idea.
What if Valad invented dreaming when he made the giants?
This has a few interesting things going for it. You have dreams in KF3. So that could be part of the series. Playing dream sequences would be fun. Dreams don't have to be the same as the way we dream. They can be more literal. Its a world of magic after all. That's why we make stories with magic.
But also, what if the sleeping giants are the dreams. So their brains or whatever make up the dreamscape.
This is interesting. And not just because you could meet giants in dreams, Twin Peaks anyone? But also because if the flood forces all of the giants out of hibernation in V then they wouldn't be able to know what the demons (edited: maybe we'll have to make a habit of distinguishing between Demons and demons and Dragons and dragons. Demons are especially confusing, but maybe that is for the best, since its an esoteric concept) are up to on the other continent(s). So they (the giants) wouldn't be able to tell the Elegrians they (the demons) are coming before VI. Which would explain why there is no preparation up to then.
This works by the way because giants can't sleep unless they are underground. Plus it takes them a while to get settled in. They'd get back to sleep just in time for VI so that dreams could come back as a feature.
Giants are never born (edited: maybe Valad made one each time he wanted a feature of the landscape; the larger the feature the larger the giant) so presumably they've been around for just about forever. So they could give you really interesting tidbits of ancient information. Handy to have something like that.
But maybe after the Dragon Tree started making monsters they began to experience nightmares. And that has made some of their memories (of dreams) and dreams sometimes unreliable. Their memories of the earliest days are best, the same way as a grown man you still dream about stuff you did as a kid more than anything else.
That could even be a way to visit events that took place before monsters appeared, since it wouldn't be worth making a game in those times. Not a conventional one anyway.
I think Valad should be pretty childish. So it would be like him to invent dreams. Just so he could do anything he wanted to in his dream worlds.
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^You know what would be a really fun feature?
What if you have to sleep as part of the game. And whenever you do odds are pretty good you will have a dream. But sometimes it isn't obvious that you are dreaming. You might go on your way for 15 minutes and only realize that you are dreaming after something really weird happens.
But since weird things happen in games like these. You really never know for sure if its a dream or not.
But chances are good that it is if you suddenly face an inescapable overwhelming challenge. That can be a mechanism to try to beat really tough challenges. And if you die, no big deal. If you don't you get experience.
Speaking of which. I really think it would be better if you got experience for every action you take. Like if you hit a monster for 10% HP that should immediately give your 10% of the EXP you would get if you killed it. That would be especially useful if we get a system working where the monsters would runaway. I don't think you should be unnaturally compelled to follow them and kill them.
This kind of system also prevents any kind of cheating to gain EXP in multiplayer. And just feels more commonsensical.
Back to dreaming. I think gotta catch'em all players would get more out of it if the dream points were scattered across the maps always in the same place. Giants would facilitate that pretty well in the open range games. It might be less common and done differently in the other games. Like how the cyclops comes to life in KF2 and KF3 also I think. Maybe you could have waking dreams too. And dreams where you come to your senses like sleepwalking.
I don't think it would suck if playable dreams became a staple. Its certainly different.
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Playable dreams could definitely be cool, Kilroy's 'Before Melanat' demo game he sent me before he quit working on it was mostly based on that sort of thing. Interacting with your dreams/visions modified reality in some manner for progression.
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^I am really not a fan of boss fights. But a nightmare is a good excuse for a fun boss fight without any consequences.
The reason we have nightmares (and depressing dreams) it seems is to prepare us for the inevitable so that we are not made catatonic by our fear and dread when the real thing happens. Its also great for foreshadowing (how its used in KF3)
PS: I was reading Vampire Hunter D the other day (2nd novel) and there was a monster that fights you in your head. You die if it kills you. Wouldn't that be interesting. Though I'm not sure how you'd tell the difference. I guess it would be useful if you are in an otherwise peaceful environment that suddenly shifts in an improbable way. Basically a dream monster.
D should be required reading for anyone wanting to make a KF game. They are similar enough. And you'll learn more than a few things. Its really the pinnacle of fantasy from a design perspective. You have all of the thrilling stuff people love about fantasy in a single in one place and it totally works.
D wanders through a far-future post-nuclear Earth that combines elements of pulp genres: western, science fiction, horror, high fantasy, H. P. Lovecraftian mythos, folklore and occult science.
Did we leave anything out?
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I really intended this thread to be about storyline. But I think I just put the last piece of the controls together. So I thought I'd post an overview. This is how SOM will work standard. And by standard I would like to suggest that games should have standardized controls. We've had so many adventure games made for so long, I think its time we settled on some standards. You can compare and contrast these controls to Dark Souls.
A detailed breakdown for authors is here (http://www.swordofmoonlight.net/bbs2/index.php?topic=136.0)
First in the case of King's Field. The most striking thing is a new magic system. This magic isn't described in the link above. But it is in the link at the top of this thread. Controls wise though magic works the same way regardless. But in KF all magic works like "Support Magic" and there is only one spell per element. Though you can also have spells that combine elements in a way that is completely predictable. So that all combinations of two elements have the same damage ratings, just for different elements.
You don't have to even use a magic button. You can assign spells to any button you want. The spells each produce a "field" that is invisible but can be thought of like a bubble around the caster, just like Missile Shield. The field's power lasts the longest if you just use it as a protective barrier and it never absorbs any damage. After the spell is cast the magic gauge drains down to indicate the power remaining in the field. The combination spells are equivalent to taking two fields of the same power and overlapping them.
I won't go into the details, but all of the traditional KF magics can be produced by interacting with the field. So for a fireball you attack it with a thrusting attack. In other words all magic is like sword magic. You can also shoot an arrow through it. The field does follow the spell caster. Except for curse magics, they remain where you cast them. Cursing everything in the area. You sit down to do those. If you use the same magic with a field raised, the field is reabsorbed. That's how instant healing works. Armor with a good Earth rating is better for healing. But you can get better healing just by standing in the field. It just takes longer. All fields have side effects.
You do huge room blasting summon attacks by doing a gesture that is unique to each kind of magic and depletes the field. I don't know about Light. It won't likely appear until game VI at the soonest. But for Fire you look up and hold your weapon up. For Earth you look down and stab into the ground. For Wind you do a fast turn around and around with your weapon held out, and for Water the same, but to the right. You can tell when you are looking far enough down for example because the view will bounce back if you let go.
You can assign a different magic to each button. But to combine them you need two casters or a caster casting a combo spell. If your weapon matches the field the magic will be powerful. If it doesn't match the field at all then it won't weaken the field or produce magic attacks. This way you can have a Fire field against a fire monster, and use an ice sword that will straight through your defensive field without weakening it and straight through the fire monster because they won't have ice defense. For example. But if you are in an area with many fire monsters your fire magic will be stronger. You can figure out what the area is like by going into the magic menu and seeing which spell has higher than normal ratings.
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^Now enough about magic. Here are the actual controls...
Bear in mind it will take a while for all of this to fall into place. But it will definitely be done before one of these proposed games is ready to head out the door with my seal of approval. In fact I see my main contribution as facilitating these controls. Its the only part I am willing to take personal responsibility for.
With these controls. Things can be radically simplified usually. Especially if you can't see your body when looking down. But as soon as you can do that things get complicated. And that represents a lot of the complications. Likewise I'll be programming these controls. But for them to work its going to take artists dedicated to churning out the necessary animation data. Verdite recoils at the idea of disembodied limbs, so I expect he will be along to loyally implement everything as new possibilities come into focus. As for myself, I'm pretty impartial either way. I can imagine players and authors preferring disembodied limbs. I mean for whatever reason more big budget games than not seem to go that route. But either way...
Controls overview. Again I won't go into detail. Even if it sounds detailed its not nearly as detailed as it could be.
Core concepts are you play with three buttons. We don't count the menu button. We assume not everyone can deal with four buttons. But we know that five buttons is out of the question. I don't believe in the player having to take their fingers off the buttons. We assume you will be playing with L1, R1, and R2. We ignore L3 and R3. Keyboard players just have to make due as best they can. They are not a priority. That said, all controls start out as keyboard keys.
Only three buttons is a tall order. This is done to be in keeping with SOM, but also like I say, that's as many buttons as you can dedicate your fingers to on a controller. If you have other buttons you can assign items and magic to them, things like that. There are also some extra keys on the keyboard, and some virtual keys that you can map buttons to. You can hold the menu button down to bring up a menu of 10 buttons that you can map to items and magic. You can also assign a button to each item in the menu so you don't even have to pull up the menu. And if you press the Menu+button combo fast enough the menu remains hidden. Tap Menu to bring up the standard menu.
There is a dedicated dashing, jumping, and shield button. Fast turning too. Dashing and Shield aren't on the keyboard. But you don't need to use any of these to access these mechanics. But if you think the controls are too convoluted, you might opt to assign one of these to the 4th button. And move Menu out of the way. Sword magic will use the Shield button regardless of how you assign different magics to different buttons.
Start is pause, which accesses movie features. Select is like Caps Lock. It puts you in dedicated stealth/jogging mode. This is the only way keyboard players can access this kind of movement since they are stuck without analog buttons. There will be a new system menu that you access with the Escape key. It would be the PS button on a PS3 controller.
Every button pulls double duty. You can tap it, or hold it, to different ends. The time it takes to register a hold is how long it takes the gauge to start draining when you dash. Players can adjust this number in the game preferences menu. I recommend between 500 and 1000 milliseconds. SOM uses 750ms. There will be a Speed stat. There will only be three stats. If you are a fast tapper that is one way to increase your Speed stat, and push the time below 500ms. Faster isn't necessarily better.
Things get most complicated when you introduce holsters, scabbards, sheaths, whatever. If you can't see your body or even your arms when not in use the player can just use their imagination. KF will use holstering mechanics. There are 3 passive modes. Meaning you can be in the mode when not pressing any buttons. Excluding things like swimming a climbing ladders. There is also a Guard, or auto mode. You go into guard mode by holding the attack button down for a weapon. Not a shield. In Guard mode you act just like one of SOM's monsters. You can move but you can't dash. Its like a defensive stance in a fighting game. You could play the whole game in this mode if you are not good at fighting. But if you did that there will have to be an alternative way to do it without holding the button down all game. Anyway, Guard mode isn't a passive mode.
Scan Mode
Here your weapons are holstered. The attack buttons don't attack. Instead they scan left and right. Hold to turn your head at a constant speed after a short acceleration (750ms by default) or tap to scan to the next interactive thing around you. It's kind of like picking a lock on target in Dark Souls, except you don't lock on, and you can't fight in this mode. It stops at anything, items, money, monsters, that isn't just a piece of furniture. It turns your neck only. Well halfway during the acceleration your eyes can't go any further, then your neck. If you look all the way behind you your upper body will turn a little bit. Tapping the attack buttons also interacts with things nearby. But Action is used to talk and read.
Edited: everything will probably have to work this way; so regardless of mode. If you attack a door you auto holster and open it instead. Probably you'll have to look down at the ground to pick up items so that you don't accidentally auto holster when you miss a monster because of an item at your feet. I won't get into why this is inevitable here. But for what its worth it is. Just imagine the Attack and Magic buttons as your left and right hands or vice versa (auto holster probably won't go to Scan Mode. It'll just be temporary until you are done doing whatever with your hands. Although it might after running and sneaking on an empty gauge, but not just for picking things up and opening doors)
Also I will go ahead and say that if there is a new noise or something, tap scanning could give priority to the source of the noise. You could tell that something is being singled out by the scan moving more quickly than normal. So even in a dangerous setting Scan Mode can have an advantage in terms of awareness. But where its best is social settings.
Draw Mode
To enter this mode from scan mode you tap the Action button. In this mode you can draw your weapons. Note that you can't accidentally attack an NPC because if you press Action you will talk to them. When you press Action nothing happens visually, but your gauges begin to fill up. In Scan mode your gauges empty out. You can also use magic in this mode by tapping the magic button. Holding pulls up your shield. You can quick draw by tapping attack, and perform a combo, and afterward the weapon goes back in its holster. If you spend too long in Draw Mode you go back to Scan Mode.
Kill Mode (for lack of a better four letter word)
This is really fight or flight mode. To enter this mode you need to permanently draw your weapon. This is the classic KF mode. You could play the whole game in this mode if you want. To permanently draw you enter Guard mode by holding the weapon button and let go. Your gauge will drain while holding, but after a while it will begin to refill. If you release within this window you never really enter Guard mode but your weapon is drawn. If you keep holding you hold your weapon in front of you in Guard (aka. auto) mode. You can still cancel Guard mode with the Action button to never enter this mode. One nice thing about this mode is your walking speed is faster. If at any time you receive combat damage you enter this mode.
Holstering works the same way as drawing. Which works the same way as doing a standing jump. When you holster you go to Scan Mode. Another way to holster is to unequip the weapon you are holding. Eg. if the weapon is assigned to a button.
The reason you may or may not want to enter these modes is Adrenaline. Its a secondary function of the Magic gauge. As adrenaline builds up the gauge loses its colour, and your magic looses its potency, but your Strength and Speed receive bonuses. The Power gauge's secondary function is Stamina. Its primary function is timing. Lower stamina means slower timing. And less power. Increased adrenaline increases stamina, and use of stamina increases adrenaline. As adrenaline increases you can go into a berserker like frenzy, but only if the game incorporates AI mechanics. Where the game does things for you based on Experience and stuff that are too fine to be inputted with a controller. If you don't like the game taking over for you when adrenaline is high you can use the adrenaline to run away and cool off. Likewise its possible to play with the AI to keep control as long as you make decisions that are consistent with the AI. If you don't you will interfere with the AI. So your options are run away, or let it takeover, or try to complement it and risk the kind of accidents that happen when adrenaline takes over. Adrenaline comes down fastest in Scan Mode (ironically ACV has something called Scan Mode, and your energy recharges more quickly in it)
When you tap the Dash button (may or may not be the Action button) you perform a rush. Which is the equivalent of speeding up to a dash and then slowing down. You can move as normal while this is happening. A rush to the side is more like a dodge, and backwards is a back step. If you hold down Dash long enough for the gauge to drain and then let go you jump. When dashing forward there is sneaking and jogging and running gaits. I won't get into how they work. But this stuff was all in the last demo. If your gauge is empty from dashing you won't jump on release unless you are running or sneaking forward. If you don't like auto jumping it can be turned off and you can use a Jump button instead.
To crouch you hold Dash while not pushing any movement buttons. Really all that matters is what you are pressing when the gauge begins to drain. If you release for a period after the gauge begins draining, but before it starts filling back up due to resting, then you do a standing jump. Once crouching you can lean out and let go to jump out of the way of something at the last second or do controlled platform jumping. You can let go for a standing jump after you lean some, as if stretching your legs.
There are also a bunch of mechanics that come from leaning into walls and things. Like climbing and kneeing, tackling (jumping into an opponent) and you can kick and stuff by pressing Action while rushing. There is only one attack except for Guard mode, but the animation changes depending how you are moving. So a sword might do a thrust if you are rushing forward, but a slash if you are moving sideways. Same for kicks.
There are a lot more details. Guard mode does a whole lot. Like bows and arrows, and firing sword magic like a bow. Throwing your weapons. You can wield two weapons, since you have backup weapons like in Shadow Tower, but just based on the last weapon you equipped. You can pass a weapon to your left hand basically. Left hand weapons use Attack for sword magic. As for two handing a weapon. Any weapon with two handed attacks can and will be wielded two handed. But there isn't a button for this. Instead if you holster your shield then you are two handing if one of your arms is not injured. This makes sense because a fighter would want to save their strength whenever possible.
I don't think big shields will be popular. I think the shield will need to be able to fall naturally to your side on a sling. I don't see them being worn on the back like in Dark Souls or lugged around. But I do foresee any object being carried in the left hand without ever going into the inventory. So you could find a large shield and use it to solve a problem, but leave it in the map once you move on. I think the player character would just automatically drop the object when passing over a different coloured grey square as setup in SOM_MAP. Likewise you could pickup a torch, or move a ladder, or anything like that. I think its important to be able to go anywhere, and even rearrange the objects in the map as long as they are not too heavy to move. As far as I know the save files track the position of every object, so this is not so farfetched, or even unlike SOM. That is its just the logical extension of moving objects with events.
I think that pretty much covers the basics. There are also social and roleplaying functions accessed by holding down both buttons in Scan Mode and tapping / holding the directional buttons. Not the dpad, the analog stick. You can adjust your headgear that way too. The fast turning gesture is pressing both sticks in the same direction left/right by modern gaming standards. You can turn incredibly fast. I recommend 3x dashing speed, and fast turn is 2x, so 6x walking speed, and you fast turn at the same speed walking or dashing, though walking accelerates more slowly. You can half turn by turning while rushing.
There are other kinds of leaning and looking gestures. Dropping equipment. Sitting down. Lying down. Crawling. And you should be able to hang off cliffs, shimmy, all that kind of stuff. There are also camera controls which can even be used for play in an advanced mode (where 2 out of 4 buttons control the camera (or 4 out of 4 in Scan Mode) press together for Action) to swivel your upperbody manually. You can also look behind when fleeing just like in Scan Mode once the gauges are empty. Check the link in the last post for more details.
EDITED: It really sounds like a lot when you put it that way. But conceptually its same old King's Field. The main difference is you can hold Magic to pull up a shield. And hold Attack to go into a guard stance. Everything else is just there to make you feel more in control, which really helps you to feel like you are really lost in the game.
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I have been thinking about how to make games more accessible. Both to handicapped people and people who are just not good at them.
I believe SOM is a platform for storytelling first and foremost. And it isn't fair to be unable to finish a story because you can't surmount a challenge.
Anyway, it occurred to me that Scan Mode is a really good idea to help blind people for instance locate things in the environment. You can couple that with a screen reader to tell them what they are looking at.
Also I think jumping can be very difficult to do for some people. So you can scan to find what you are interested in, and then press another virtual button not assigned by default to have the character move to that location. Its like a game where you can click your destination with a mouse and go there, but you can do it with a controller.
I think this combined with auto fighting provided by Guard mode can help people experience the games.
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The four curses of King's Field.
Here is a curse system that's come into its own of late.
Curse magic is performed sitting down. And the magic effects the area around where you are sitting and doesn't follow you after you get back up. There are four curses, for each elementary magic. They are all simultaneously helpful and harmful.
Generally the magic power of the caster determines the strength of the curse. But accessories can be equipped to make the curse less severe. Similarly there are accessories for lifting curses, which reverse the effect of the curse. It may be possible to simply perform the curse in a different but similar fashion to lift the curse. For example you could look down to cast the curse and up to lift the curse or something like that. But accessories could be used to improve the outcome either way.
Curses all bind to items. If you hold something in your hands only that item will be affected, otherwise the entire vicinity. Including any item or bag of items on the ground. And also monsters in the case of the undead.
Speaking of which. One thing curses do is keep the undead dead. Otherwise they will get back up after a short while. You can't make a weapon be the vector for the curse. You either have to cast the curse as magic or keep moving before the undead get back up.
Most undead are of the Earth. So Earth curse works best for them. But depending on where the undead hails from you want to use that kind of magic to keep them down.
Earth curse itself makes things very heavy. Especially the undead. It doesn't effect living things or things not of the earth. You might curse a bag of items if you want it to stay put. Otherwise some fiend or lucky passer by might abscond with it. Similarly if you find a item with this kind of curse, good luck carrying it away.
Water curse poisons things. Including edible stuff, and weapons. Pretty straightforward. Be careful if you find an edible item. It might be poisoned. In its simplest form it would introduce a random chance of poison to a stack of items. Anyway this is a pretty good way to let you use poisonous weapons.
Wind curse makes items a bit lighter. Great for heavy armor lovers. But it conversely makes your inventory heavier including everything not in hand. Especially things of the earth like gold coins. You must travel light and free yourself of want to reap the whirlwind. Thieves are not too fond of this curse. It forces them to choose between the cursed item or dropping their money.... sometimes boys are brought along to carry these things off separately.
Speaking of thievery. It's complicated, but I've been trying to devise a believable system for traveling with equipment in plain sight. So if a weapon can't fit in a backpack it must appear on the character for example. I recently thought about making a coin purse and canteen visible on the player as prime targets for thieves. Like the ubiquitous Steal option in turn based RPGs or yore. Canteens are special to KF I think thanks to its magical healing waters based game play. Crystal Flasks are fun, fun for KF2. But in any other KF I think a crystal canteen would be standard issue. More like the Estus Flask in Dark Souls. Edited: oh yes. The coin purse and canteen would fill up and then the number of bags in your inventory would increase after so many coins for example. So if stolen you'd just lose remainder currently in the purse at your side.
Finally Fire curse addresses just that. It's a classical curse where the cursed item is linked to the holders soul or whatever. Since Fire is linked to the soul. Another prime target for thieves is weapons since they can be easily plucked from their holsters. So a Fire curse ensures the weapon is bound to its owner by Fire. I reckon if anyone ever wants to player a King's Field MMORPG (heaven forbid) this sort of thing would be invaluable to players carrying coveted items. The other interesting thing about this is if you find a weapon on a dead man you know that its possibly cursed in this way. But you won't find out until you equip the item or try it out...
And if it is cursed the curse transfers over to you! If you can only carry so many weapons, including a temporary one for trying out newly picked up items. Then you must either use the cursed item as a temporary weapon, meaning you can't equip anything else. Or if you are traveling with a free weapon slot that will fit the item, you can move the cursed item to that slot. Either way you'll need to lift the curse before you can get it out of your inventory.
Oh and cursed equipment has its affinities shifted towards the curse. So weapon cursed with Fire will have a higher fire rating depending on the power of the curse. But you can't figure that out until you are cursed in the case of Fire. Earth curse makes weapons and equipment heavier. For weapons that can mean a harder hit. And for armor that yields a healing bonus. If you can take the weight. Likewise poison weapons have higher Water ratings, and Wind better Wind ratings. And also keep in mind that the elements have different weights for attack and defense. So Earth cursed armor has better defense qualities, Wind worse defense, and Fire the worst defense, but also the strongest attack.
The shift would also weaken its opposites. Which can be used to advantage also. And some accessories could interact with different aspects of the curses. Like reducing the weight of Earth cursed equipment so its manageable but retaining the other benefits. The same accessory could make Wind curses more severe so that you could not mix and match such equipment. Before an item can be cursed it cannot be already cursed, so its curse must be lifted.
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^It occurred to me that this Curse system bears more than a resemblance to doing the elemental weapon upgrades in Dark Souls, but IMO it works much better, and is much more in keeping with King's Field.
Also speaking of curses. While trying to figure out how to manage weapons on a visible player. I think I stumbled upon the conclusion that a prayer like gesture would work much better for King's Field for casting spells. Especially since all spells would work like "support magic" as described, but mainly because you can do it with your hands full. Also building a magical field, is something that doesn't require hands in any way. My original thought was maybe you concentrate on building a bubble in your hand as a focal point that expands out into a field....
But now it seems much better if you just bring your hands together like a prayer weapons and all, and maybe mutter something under your breath, and that makes a field. Maybe each element could have a sigil that briefly appears beneath you, but otherwise fields are invisible, except where things interact with them. Which is cool in itself, because its like an aura of power that is out of sight.
Regardless the prayer approach is cool, because it looks similar to doing a curse. So esthetically they are not that far apart. The only logical conclusion to come of this is the Shield and Magic button would need to be separate. For King's Field using these magic fields that's no problem at all really, since you set the field up during a moment of safety instead of in the heat of battle. In truth the Magic button could be anywhere on the controller for this kind of magic, you could even have a different spell on each out of the way button.
PS: In trying to show all of the weapons on the player, save for those that can be fit into a backpack. It seems like the most practical thing to do is to have a Back equip slot for Large weapons (too long to wear at the side) that can only be held with both hands. The classical Moonlight sword would probably be such a weapon. Or Dark Souls portrays it as such anyway. But personally I'd prefer the Moonlight sword were a bastard sword. Making it small enough to be worn at the side. I'm not a huge fan of big swords. Plus the Dark Slayer doesn't seem like a sword worn on the back. So to my mind these swords should appear equal in stature. Plus if you have to choose between the Moonlight and a bow that isn't cool.
A spear and a bow or non-collapsible crossbow would also be large weapons. Going to Shield->Back is kind of out of the way. But players could probably figure it out. You can draw these weapons with the Shield button, which makes sense because two hands are required to do so. Large shields are Back equip. Small shields can be used with spears once the spear is drawn. The Weapons will go Weapon->Sidearm->Belt->Boot, with the latter two being knives, or weapons small enough to keep in a backpack. These slots will be filled up automatically with whats in your inventory. Unless you are in an armory or shop, or near a campsite, pack animal or a squire or something your inventory is only as large as what you are carrying.
Weapon and sidearm can hold "knives" too. Which you can carry as many as you can weight wise. I think there is going to be a knapsack system too, but its a little early to say. The knapsack is actually your belt, but if you Use it you can go light, dropping your backpack. In that mode the belt is worn diagonally if using a Large weapon...
Technically you can use two Large weapons, since you can tryout the weapon you just picked up as a temporary weapon which must be dropped to do anything more or less. It's kind of like going overweight in Armored Core, shooting off a Large weapon as fast as you can, then dropping it (in fact to do this you'd have to equip the weapon. Drop it on the ground. Equip another weapon. And then pick the dropped weapon back up as a found/trial weapon. So its kind of a trick--and of course from there on out you'd have to keep juggling the extra weapon)
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One thing I've been working on is design documents for a harness system, since KF is traditionally a lone adventurer game. A lot of thought must go into an everyman modular utility belt/outfit to allow for any kind of equipment scenario.
I only mention it because it occurred to me one day that a literal harness would be pretty neat. Not that it must always be worn, though it could be. The bottom can just be kept tucked away with the rest of your inventory. In other words you'd be equipped for literal rock climbing, spelunking, tree climbing, what have you, with just a length a rope to drag along.
And I only mention this. Because one thing I've not been crazy about is just how accessible KF's secret compartments are. It lends itself to blazing along walls banging on the open up button. As nostalgic as that may be. It's really not cool, and it doesn't fit the mood. Plus if you find every secret in a game you are bound to be overpowered, its just too easy to do, and too geared toward the OCD kind of player whose mental illness really shouldn't be taken advantage of by video games.
So what I thought would be cooler is a system where you push up against the wall and move your hands over it looking for a hollow sound and then an open up mechanism. Which may or may not be nearby, and is probably hand sized. This way you won't go looking for a secret panel or door unless you have a good hunch. Plus the secret revealing items would be more valuable.
Now I only mention this, because it occurred to me that this is very much like rock climbing... so we are back at that harness. So the basic idea is you can scale a sheer cliff by looking for handholds like secret door mechanisms. It sounds kind of tedious, but don't forget that SOM has a tile based philosophy. So if you learn where the handholds are on a tile, then if you can recognize the tile, and memorize the pattern, then you already know how to get up it. Plus there could be hints built into the tiles. And hammering spikes too.
Anything can be climbable this way, so you can really deliver a sense of go anywhere freedom to the player. And reward them for thinking in terms of tiles. The message here is tiles are a strength not a weakness, and can even be integrated into game play. Throughout your career you can learn to recognize tiles from games you've already played, and even be rewarded for accepting that games can share common elements, and that can be a good thing. Somehow anyway, we have to get people over this idea that every game must reinvent everything from the atom up. Games are stories. Not showcases of insanity (if a movie needs a motorcycle they don't design and build a motorcycle and every component from scratch, that's insanity... and we enjoy recognizing familiar things like old friends. Why not reward players for being good friends I say :beerchug:)
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"So what I thought would be cooler is a system where you push up against the wall and move your hands over it looking for a hollow sound and then an open up mechanism. Which may or may not be nearby, and is probably hand sized. This way you won't go looking for a secret panel or door unless you have a good hunch. Plus the secret revealing items would be more valuable. "
Like to add to this with a small input, why not let players hit the wall with their fist or weapon for the hollow sound?
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The hidden wall traps in KF helped to discourage "mashing the search button"some. I like the idea of sound signifying where to search. Seems like secret locations will always leak out online so people will just look them up. The best system I've seen so far, in my opinion, is hiding secrets where it takes a certain skill level to get to them - such as the lock picking used in the Krondor series or even a "spot" skill like Arx Fatalis used. SoM can already use both those scenarios by storing extra stats (like a spot skill) in counter slots. You could make something like a "journal" item in inventory that showed "extra skill" stats when used.
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Touche, wall traps are interesting. But they seem a little bit predicated on the idea that people are going to be searching for secret cubbyholes that don't belong to them.
Traps like that would still work. They'd just be more difficult to activate. To me secret doors are at their best when it seems logical that judging by adjoining rooms there is a space between them that is unaccounted for. A good secret room can be seen or at least suspected just by looking at a map. Then it becomes the question of how to access it.
As for those niches in the walls. The tile should just have a telltale difference. But in general the only logical reason to look for such niches is if you have a hint from an NPC or something that such a thing exists. Maybe an X on a map. One good place to expect them might be near doors, if the secret contains a copy of the key. Like that key in KF3 near the poison roundabout tunnel where the guy is searching the wall for the secret he knows is there. That would be more interesting if at the very least you must scan the wall with your hands.
One thing that I think will have to be resisted is the temptation to build games that encourage the player to turn over every nook and cranny. If you are ever going to venture over the entire continent of Elegria. Looking under every rock has to be the last thing on your mind. There's just too much ground to cover. I think we have to somehow get away from this Disney World view of game worlds... everything in miniature if there is going to be depth.
If your world is sufficiently sparse, online game guides are going to be impractical. If you are using a guide the game has already failed you on some level. So I don't think that's a good way to judge progress. A game should be judged on the journey itself at every instant along the way.
PS: As for punching the walls. I don't think that would yield useful sound effects. I imagine knocking on the walls. If you are pressed against a wall the attack buttons won't do the same thing. Even if you are near something like a door an attack will open the door. But if you are out of arms reach you might be able to hit it with your weapon for no good reason. There just aren't enough buttons to go around, and the Action button is not ideal for opening things, because it makes you dash and stuff too. Plus Action should be limited to things not associated with your arms. You can have a separate Event button. But I'd much rather have a useful macro assigned to that button.
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Hey rereading that last bit just gave me an interesting idea...
What if when leaning into a door you knocked on it instead of opening it. Then an NPC could come and let you into their home.
There are going to be behavioral differences for sure in Scan Mode. Probably that would be one of those things that only happens in Scan Mode so that you don't knock on a door while fleeing a monster.
Doors are actually a real challenge. Like I spoke to Verdite about the lack of doors in his village. Mainly because I want people to make doors. But it occurred to me that doors would totally change the tone of the village. It wouldn't be as inviting. Still houses need doors. So I suggested coming up with a way for the doors to be opened when the map is opened. Being able to knock but not being forced to would be the last step in totally bridging that gap. NPCs could even behave differently if you were not invited inside.