Sword of Moonlight Forum
Sword Of Moonlight Games => Games (Dormant Projects) => Mytrosia & Fallen By The Way => Topic started by: Madison Lastrega on May 11, 2010, 11:50:18 am
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Hello my friends..... Sorry for the long delay in progress reports.... I have been working alot and have MAJOR news to report...... My fallen by the way web link will be fixed by june 1 st......... I have made MAJOR changes but am waiting to post a demo befor I raise anymore hopes...... So here it is I won't sugar coat....... I have officialy killed the the SoM project of fallen by the way..... Now don't be sad, Fallen by the way WILL be released next year, but I have decided to make it what I wanted in the first place... A REAL GAME..... 128 bit engine, and all the stuff a NEW game should have....... My engine is Crystalspace, an exellent but hard to use engine that works seamlessly with Blender..... it is open sorce , free and you can sell your work,,,,,, please wiki it to see what I mean..... I have a C++ college student helping me write the source game code......So all is well, and FBTW WILL live and WILL be a TRUE "games for windows" title...... and will look as good as the models I have spent 7 months working on.. Will feature true motion blur , particle effects , the works..... and , as stated before works with blender and blender's animation engine.FOR REAL CUSTOM ENEMIES AND NPC'S....... also works with most high end map editors...... stay tuned to FBTW.com in june for details....... NOW, for all my friends whom have helped me over the last 7 months..... I still love SoM , and recomend to any one whom wants to make a game to make an SoM game...SoM provides game theroy, event theroy, and of couse model making skills...... A must for any new devolper..... So for my fans and just to say I did it, I WILL be releasing a working SOM title called 'Mytrosia" I have 4 maps ready made for it and will demo it soon....... Mytrosia is the prequel to fallen by the way....... Mytrosia is Madison's Home land..... it this game will document all the events that lead up to fallen by the way.......... I realized that my hopes for fallen by the way were IMPOSSIBLE for the weak and sad SoM engine.... and spending months trying to "RIG" som to do what other engines do standard was stupid and too time consuming...... Mytrosia will be a standard Som game with only a CGi opening and ending...... the video limitations of som SUCK..... Mytrosia is Island based and takes place on 8 islands...... 22 maps will be all there is to it....... I will also be using the standard som map set with all the ones I made for FBTW, that way I can get this game done, instead of making map parts for days at a time......... It will have many many customs that were made for both FBTW and DD.... (thanks Todd).... While it won't be the glorious vision I had of FBTW, it will be a solid som Based game with good plot.......... if anyones interested in knowing the story..Just ask ........ I will be hosting it here and on my own web site ,and will be freeware, and will release all my parts open source, upon it's release........... I am making it for the challenge and, for the fact I did not spend 7 months F*%King with SoM to not make a game for it, I am just being realistic...... Som is so out of date that it hard to make a powerful game with it........ But I think Mytrosia will be as good as DoM and maybe even DD......... I thank all my friends on here , and promise to help anyone whom need SoM advice....... Stay tuned for further updates on both my Madison lastrega presents titles:).............. Love you all .........ML
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June 1st for the FBTW site. I'll be there.
Looking forward to Mytrosia.
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If you'll be making a bunch of custom stuff please consider back porting everything for use by Som sometime.
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Thanks Tom, I am moving with ease on my new project...... After a month with another engine, and writing boring C++ code.......Working again with SoM is easy..... and just so that everyone knows, Som has the easiest model importing EVER........ With Crystal space you have to make 3 of everything........ One model to view, one model for the wieght and physics, and one for collision......... SoM build and compile......... And Holy of course, eveything I build and do for Mytrosia is open source, so anyone can play with my goodies , as always...... By the way, great work with custom MDls, I hope that maybe you can get it figured out in time for me to use some in this title..........if not , will be awesome for future builders............ Here are the Gui's I built for Mytrosia what do you think? will post all my stuff as always for my friends to check out.........
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My primary excuse (and that's what it is) on not finishing my 3rd game is that I don't have enough new "stuff" to work with.
I thought two games with the same enemy designs, same NPC designs... a 3rd game would be beating a dead horse.
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yeah my primary excuse for Fallen By The way is.......Som blow chunks (for modern games that is) and the game I want to make would be impossible to make , and the bugs..God the bugs......... So I am taking all my stuff I built for FBTW mixed with some new stuff, and the DD item and object set and crank out a good but REALISTIC SoM release, however I am still going to reskin all the npc's and some enemies to add some flavor...... and I am still making improvments to the SoM world in general...... For instance...I love trees, but hate the idea of trees as objects. So I made a pine map piece... very small only 65 k and works wonders.....And saves precious object slots...... I will make 5 more types of trees like this of and BAMB....... instant low poly forest WITHOUT TERRIBLE LAG...... So SoM for me is far from dead...... I just cant make 60 plus maps with SoM without losing my sanity, my wife, you get the idea:) and I want to sell FBTW...... and from will never come off the source code to improve it, nor will they allow anyone to redistribute it....... so will make a phat SoM game for free , then use GOOD software to make FBTW the way it should be......... Plus I can help myself and my charity with out a gazillion dollors in royalties.......... anyway , Dig the trees?
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The big win for Som is the really enormous amount of quality assets you get for free. Assuming you won't be attempting to copy all the stuff over from Som you will have to either find an alternative treasure trove or make everything from scratch. The way Som is at the moment it's hard to recommend doing something that isn't either in the legacy of KF or for the love of Som. I know a bit about indie teams making games with CrystalSpace, Torque, Irrlecht, the list goes on and on. It doesn't usually work out and the offerings are even more forgettable than the indie stuff that makes it onto the likes of Xbox Live Arcade. It's very easy to get lost in the possibilities and none of these engines were really designed with any forethought so they're all really a mess which can be frustrating.
I discovered Raystorm HD last night. That is probably the coolest/best use of current generation gaming yet. There is something beautiful about Playstation era games before the possibilities were endless but not too stifling. Game makers have still not come to terms I think with how to effectively deploy modern technology in terms of a good game that is not all over the map. I guess the argument is people haven't figured out the basics so to me Som is at least as interesting as anything out there. Of course if it doesn't do what you need you're out of luck for the time being anyway.
When you have your demo ready if you add the movies you'd like for it to play instead I can make them play with your game/demo. If someone doesn't prepare a setup for me I got nothing to work with.
Som has a bright future for DIY games I think, as long as authors understand they're not trying to compete with the mentality of commercial games and just want to make a fun/clever game which can probably look as good as a PS2 gen game running thru the original Som runtime exe.
There are some very real probably insurmountable limitations but unless you know Som very well you probably don't know what these actually are.
I don't think the inside of Som is really based on the workflow of the map editor. Therefore it's probably possible to build a completely different kind of map editor from scratch. Personally I like the 2D map approach so imagine a map editor with at the minimum multiple layers to each map.
Also bear in mind ST was a pretty sophisticated game... I played it recently, and actually it's map transitions work like Som's more or less. So that might have been the inspiration for the black fade in / fade out teleport setup versus just being lazy and only implementing KF1's warp setup. Still once a remake is in the can KF2 style seamless transitions can be setup also.
I have a complete grasp of the MDL files which is the single biggest hurdle to a remake (I tend to work backward from the toughest obstacle) ...once there is a basic x2mdl setup ready I'm planning to build a PSOne disc ripper and rip everything out of ST so it can be added to Som's already extensive catalogue. Som's goodies are good enough for any project I'd like to do but hopefully some new stuff will encourage some new games.
We could also do the same for the KF games. Personally I'd like to see games done with different graphical styles. And even a very abstract style which if we had models for could be the basis for a faerie map style extension.
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Yeah I agree, SoM is a fabulous learning tool for any would be builder, I have gotten so much from SoM, and when things work , SoM can be fun........ In fact Working on FBTW, I stopped having fun, and thats why I knew I had to seek another engine...... I had to build Crystalspace myself...... Full build..... no pre fabs...... it accepts any source code you can throw at it........ Thats the challenge..... Making your parameter editor, map editor, ect..... All must be MADE, unlike som that does the 6 hardest parts for you, all you do is build......... but luckily for me I have a great college near by with a good stock of C++ nerds ready to "geek" away.......... What I am doing for FBTW, is using much of the sorce code from other open source games to make my editors, and "gameplay engine" call it cheating, I call it intuitive...... besides thats what open source is anyway...... AND I can get a pre fab design to fit what I looking for....... as long as I realese the source all is legal........ but as I said before the main reason I am using CS, is is't full intergration with Blender...... like a dream come true......... and it makes GREAT STUFF, I included some examples of projects made with CS, to show that with even basic sorce code one can make great stuff........ now if I had the source code of SoM, then I just redo SoM to add the missing features....IE reverse rotation...... Particles and true fog....... NON tiled maps....... Mp3 Sound engine..... OGG support, smoke effects...... the list goes on......but FROM will never come off of it..... and with CS that is what I am doing, I am taking other open source projects, out there and making MY SOM......... will take a while, but once done , it will be a snap to make FBTW .... Marketable, and most of all PRETTY.............Anyway I have boring stuff to do on Mytrosia, I am making more of thoses trees map parts:)............ Take care all..........http://www.crystalspace3d.org/main/Projects_Using_CS#Precursors
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Just a progress pic of my forest map set so far 3 different size pines and 2 types of tall pines...... More to come........ML
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TREES and More Trees....... Anyway another progress pic here is what the forest scenes will look like in Mytrosia...... add a few more oaks and instant low poly forest that gets the player in the forest like no other KF has yet..... Now if only I could set the trees on fire , then that would be awesome....... but thats another game:)..........................ML
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New progress forest pic..........Ahh the colors of fall...... I built a new oak set consisting of 4 colors to add more depth to my forest scenes,,,,,,, Mytrosia is made up of 8 islands...... so the main theme of this game is mostly forest scenes , beach scenes lots of water and 8 huge underground dungeons........ Not happy with my floor yet but it is a work in progress......... *wondering if I am talking to myself*........ML
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I am............I am talking to myself............ All alone in SoM.com..........tis sad.........
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Been outta town for 8 days, will be home tonight.
I just got caught up on all the posts since ive been unavailable.
ML...I am sad about FBTW but I totally understand and support your decision. When I heard you were contemplating 60 maps in SOM I figured it was only a matter of time before some limitation frustrated you to the point of stopping SOM, quite honestly, I expected it earlier than 7 months in.
I am glad you are going to produce mytrosia, and am looking forward to it.
A few words of caution, and take them however you want. Working with another engine with far less limitations is going to saddle you with a project that is likely going to be far greater than one person can handle, especially if you are truly considering a 1 year project time. A 20 map SOM game with only 50% customs would take any normal person nigh a year to complete.
Find a reliable programmer. I can't stress this enough. Countless, and I mean likely tens of thousands of would be cool games never see release simply because the indie groups that are producing them lose a lead programmer and can't go on without them. Source code is not an easy thing to follow, especially if the programmer you have is in the 'learning' stage...i.e. a college student. They will do things half-assed simply because they don't know better, and might leave no comment lines in the source, thus making it nearly impossible for anyone else to pick up where they left off. Be 100% sure the programmer you have is in it for the long haul, and don't expect to randomly pick up a new 'college nerd' at the drop of a hat that can pick up where another programmer bails. Just be careful...with this new engine your project just got a lot more in depth, and custom code is pretty much impossible for a community (such as this one) to help fix up if it goes south.
Ill type more when i get back, gotta go finish packing.
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I look forward to the Som game and want to reiterate Todd's warnings / encourage you to not be discouraged if your Crystal Space adventure turns into a gameless learning experience.
About comments and code. A really good programmer knows how to write code that is self documenting (needs no comments 99% of the time) unfortunately most programmers are tragically taught to program in ways which were probably originally devised in order to make code inscrutable for whatever covert logic.
In other words, explaining what every line of code is doing (the way kids are taught in school) in English is really an ill fit as the purpose of code itself is to be efficient and separate from any particular human language (which in this day and age of international opensource coding you can't always assume your fellow programmers will speak your language)
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Holy , I think I got a grasp of my programming, but thanks for your concern...... FBTW, and my crystal space project is a ways off...... I built the engine, got it working, tested the engine with a open source chess game, works great, know I have a ton to do , moving on........ For now Mytrosia is my main concern........ And I need you to help with one VERY important detail.... in mytrosia I want the beggining of the game to have the compass disabled until a compass item is found and used......... Now there are no conventioal ways to do this in SoM......... However I think your somEX (forgive me if I did not type that correctly) is the answer...... I have gave up on alot of "out-of-the-box" ideas , but it is realllllly important to get this feature working...... upon discussing it with Todd........ it might actually be written into the output game file what you need to do if you want to know is modify that flag in the system table......and see which parameter file changes in SOM, im guessing its system.dat......but if you can check the time stamp and verify,thats a step in the right direction.....if you can pinpoint which file changes, then you can run a program to compare the hex of the file when the flag is set to show compass on and show compass off........then youll know which hex needs modified.....Then find a way to change it in game, but there is no event for it. but there could be one that triggered a counter that you could monitor,and maybe based on that counter, cause it to change....... Do you think you can do that kind sir?? It would help the start of my game and make it more of a chalenge, as 3 maps of forset maze with no map or no compass, would be WHAT I need....... Now I gave up on all types of custom stuff , but I really need this to work, with your results in the past , I think you can do it......What do you say? will you please help me make an event to turn the compass on and off:) ............please let me know soon, for I don't have a lot of time to waste anymore, on out-the-box-ideas, that go nowhere............Thankx............. ML
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Joe! BLIMEY i love the forests! Q-q-quality! :biggrin:
So mate, maybe we'l have to work together sometime? I think two heads are better than one and i can knock up models really easily.
Also how did you change the status / menu graphics? They look grand so they do.
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I was just lambasting comments in code. Nothing personal.
A = A+5; //adding 5 to A so that A is now 5 more than it was
Probably the best way to disable the compass right now is to just keep it from being drawn by DirectX somehow. I don't recommend writing over the sys.dat file mid game anyway. SomEx doesn't modify the game files, that's kind of against its code of ethics. The only real challenge there is detecting for certain when Som is drawing the compass. Examining a counter is easy, another way to go (not ready yet) would be to look in the players inventory (saving the author a counter/event)
EDITED: I think probably the extension will take a memory address as its argument so it can work either way.
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So Holy..........Uhhhmmmm , is that yes we can make the effect work or errh not yet maybe? either way thanks for looking in to it..............Keep me informed.......... To Ben Thanks, I like when folks notice my labor:) ....And to answer your question....... in c:\programfiles\swordofmoonlight in the folder named 'Menu' all of your GUI's are stored......Back them up in a different folder, then modify them to your specs........ is easy and fun, be sure to overwrite in THE EXACT same postion for the spacings to be correct....... Here are the ones I made in full so you can see what I did:).............Happy Modeling.......ML
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Am I the only one who notices there is no attempt to file posts under appropriate topics in here? Or almost a perverse incentive program to do the exact opposite .........................
Do you always have to suck the fun out of this forum...... You think maybe more people would join and post if they had FUN and did not feel like they had to be under a microscope of what to talk about or where to talk about it ?
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Lol I have to wonder...was that posted under this topic instead of the other just for irony?
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Do you always have to suck the fun out of this forum...... You think maybe more people would join and post if they had FUN and did not feel like they had to be under a microscope of what to talk about or where to talk about it ?
That's what (regularly pruned) 1000 post random chatter stickies are for.
People search forums for information and you trample over peoples topics when you interject randomly.
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Hi All, Mytrosia's "card system" is almost finished...and once again I need advice.... Ok Mytrosia will feature something never never found in any other SoM title.... as far as I know ANY game for that matter...... Anyway... I wanted to use what little features that SoM had to do something out the box..... I agree with holy diver alot when he said ..... Games are so fake the way monsters have gold on them , boxes of goodies are just "everywhere"... So what I am diong to add more depth and just plain ol item collecting fun, is making money ALMOST non existant..Only hunamoid Eneimies will have gold.... For all other money, you have to be resorceful.
almost every weapon every potion, EVERYTHING in my world will have to be made..... so I came up with Recipie cards....
once you have the correct card you must go and hunt down all the correct goodies to make whatever it is your after...... The amount of "always on" events has been Massive, but not as bad as one might think, due to the fact that NOT all stores can make everything..... IE weapons must be made at the black smith...... Amor at the garrison........Potions at the pubs.....Ect but it is working:) ....SO FAR:) all recipes are "MAPS" so ignor the little black dot on the cards:) and once you use the correct "map" near the correct vendor......... the event will make a bottle or sword, or gloves or whatever you want to make........ Alot of stuff you can then sell to make dough:) not all weapons will be cards some will be found, but most stuff is on a card SOMEWHERE....... there aare over a hundred currently....... I have all the cards made and most of the items ready to place.... but now I need some advice on , the looks of the "maps" the first two pics below are samples of how they look in som..... please tell me what one looks best........thanks in advance..............I have also included some still of how the cards look..........there 9 suits 12 cards per suit..and four SPECIAL cards......... enjoy the art.........ML
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Jazzam, while not normally a fan of card games within RPGs (at all) that looks pretty unique.
I wonder if you just called them cards because you couldn't make them quit spinning in the item menu. That could maybe be prevented from happening. You could also still call them items but just display them as cards, so that maybe they could be spun off into a table top CCG.
One of the reasons I've been neglecting Som this last week is I've been putzing around playing MTG online. It wasn't something I could really fit into my schedule before I could play online, but I think the initial novelty is about to run its course. My brother is the MTG freak in the family. I just play with his cards. He sometimes sponsors me at tournaments when in town and gets the cards I win plus his own (he seems to get first place a lot)
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Heres a sample of ONE of my new house designs for mytrosia , hope you all enjoy :) Core house is only 4 map pieces too:).... a front two middles and a back......
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Looking good Joe...keep it up.
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Can we have an update my friend?
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UPDATE: Been working double shifts due to the the summer volume....... But still plugging away.... Have been working mainly this week on MHM and the pain that it is......... Speaking of MHM......... TODD would you mind telling me why possibly I am having such a time with my larger pieces? I mean I have some mhm that is easy and works fine..However on my large pieces I am haveing a rough time getting it right....... Example in the pic below represents my house/ cabin MHM for the side walls........ The inside walls work fine, the distance and everything is ok, but the outter walls, I CANNOT get right.... I made them thicker and thicker till it just was walkthroughable....... Finally I made a few trim pieces where the house meets the grass (pic 2) and I made an mhm that worked for the outter walls, But I can't figure out why I can't just use the house mhm, instead I have to *double* mhm my buildings:(.....Thanks in advance......ML
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Joe my friend, i have had some serious MHM collision problems too. My advice to you is to simply create singular map pieces that you can join up. I know it takes more time and effort to sort out, but i made a map set that is very alike your cabin set and it works fine with individual pieces. It has a roof, floor and walls very similar to your own cabins.
You've probably contemplated it already. I've found that two blocks (not planes) work well together as MHM collision when you place the standing block into the floor block. For one of my sets i had to create a fat wall... It pushed out to possibly double the width of the msm wall.
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Joe, I definitely agree with Ben, all MHM pieces should be cubical and not flat. Whenever you construct an object in meta to make a section for your mhm file choose the three dimensional objects and not the flat floor, that will help alot.
As for walls not colliding correctly, I dont recall ever having an issue with that...I would be willing to wager the issues youre having with the walls are stemming from the flat floor you are using believe it or not. Also make sure your objects overlap instead of butt up against each other, or merge all your objects so that there are no spaces between anything, even 1 pixel is enough to make it walkthrough.
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I had similar issues with a flat floor piece i created from a plane, thinking this was a good idea. It wasnt.
When i reconstructed it, i created a cube for the floor, and as a general rule now, i create walls floors and pretty much any map data (unless its a singular add on for the map) with a cube.
Somewhat off topic, with enterance data you are better off having an object placed in the entrance (like two support beams) that is made up of quite alot more pixels than your average. Its also good to triangulate the object you are placing here, i made a door set that didnt have support beams and was perfectly fine otherwise, and i often fell through it. I then created a different set and gave up. I made the door for this new set and its great, i have no issues, so i placed the construction idea into my new set and its fine too.
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Sorry Guys, you know I love ya both , but I have to disagree...CUBES may work for you guys, but in the end the are not the way to go or at least for me........ I tried all types of cube variations....., and cubes yes cubes create more holes than a swiss cheese factory...... However FLAT SINGLE sided planes are the true way to go and I believe ALL som Stock pieces are built that way........ I had to learn the rules of mhm, Now I have it down to a SCIENCE, and have not had any further issue.....The rules of planes as mhm is as follows........ Som does its mhm pass, in x2mhm.exe from north to south ........ All planes must be Single sided only , if you make a piece double sided, it becomes a death trap...... All pieces must touch with the exeption of door ways.... And as long as you make sure they are not longer than 600 Centimeters... (that was the problem I had) I cut my size to 590 centimeters all was perfect....As far as I can tell there are no hieght restrictions to MHM only width ......Anyway I got Whole building MHM set done , and it is perfect.........I know cubes may have worked for you two, but for me, Planes is the way of the walk............And in a little while I will be able to prove it, in fact , Todd, would you allow me to post a tiny demo of my buildings?, and then you can walk around in my little universe and see the smooth difference that a plane built MHM does....... Thanks for your advice both of you...... I can send you guys some of my findings in MQO format and you can play around with them if you like. But for me Planes works.... Especially for flooring:) Happy modeling, and Todd let me know where I can put a simple two map demo?:)............ (with my custom pices it will still be a 400 Meg plus demo) I hate how when you output , it makes you output EVERYTHING, but anyway thats Som for ya:)
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To each their own :)
I am glad you got it working.
Do you still have the ftp access info I gave you? If so , just upload your stuff and post a link for the demo.
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I have new information if any one is interested:) Topic: Stackable map tiles: It is common knowledge in SoM land that one cannot stack two map tiles on top of one another, Another well known fact is that one CANNOT walk under any other map pieces....( I found this out the hard way when I first started ) However map pieces can intersect the same space just fine........ Map pieces as far as I can tell heve no vertical size restrictions.... so what I did was made a basement for my buildings........ No how is the fun part............ My cabin and house sets are 3 map pieces wide and one map piece high so to speak.........The house set uses the Middle square, I made the basement mirror the upper section...... both pieces use the same space and you can walk under the origanal part and not die........ the end result is TRUE stackable pieces.....Of course Typical SoM rules apply as far as objects..........Meaning dont put two objects on top of one another and put solid objects (like barrels to make sure you can't grab objects above or below you...... If you want further information on this including how to incorperate this in your own projects , please post or write to madisonlastrega@fallenbytheway.com , as I will always provide assistance.....................ML ..............PS will post pics later this evening................
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Here are thoses pics I promised............... (Next) A two story Crib with a basement, Ya know for the rich folk..... or a mayors crib or something:)
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Looking fantastic Joe, I wish you had made your game before mine, I would have loved to use this stuff in it. I am almost tempted to make another game with SOM someday because of all the cool stuff you and Ben are making.
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Well thank you, I aim to inspire.................. :cool:
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Brilliant work my friend. I'm pleased to see the new stuff, its similar to mine. Basements, my favourite part of a building (in terms of exploration :rainbow:) are in my game too, i love them. I created a 5 story building! And its fine as far as i'm aware.
Still... I need to fully test it. Good to see you posting more too Joe, always a good read and of course Todders.
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Once you guys finish your games...wanna work on one together? :P
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Funny i just mailed u about that. And i'd love to, btw. :rainbow:
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Me Too, Count me In
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Looking back at these screens, they are incredible really. I couldnt see them as well on my old monitor because the brightness was poor. Now i can see them properly, i realise what Joe meant when he said "i know which colours work well with SoM" Well you certainly do, the wood texture for the cabin is really good... Trust me i know how hard it is to get a proper texture that lines up well.
Joe, you've dissapeared again, but dont give up because youre game will be really great.
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Now i can see them properly, i realise what Joe meant when he said "i know which colours work well with SoM" Well you certainly do, the wood texture for the cabin is really good... Trust me i know how hard it is to get a proper texture that lines up well.
FYI: The only thing Joe could really mean by "which colours work well" would have to be referring to Som's gamma ramp (whether he realized it or not) ... well with Ex there is no longer a gamma ramp unless you really really want it, and the colours you get are the colours you'd expect (the same as the ones in your files)
The brightness in the options under Ex now adjusts brightness the same way brightness probably works in TVs. It's a conservative adjustment so the range gets squashed but never clipped (detail is preserved)
Also the brightness adjustment is only applied to stuff that is lit, so the menus etc are not effected. They look better as is, and should have enough contrast to not need adjustment. And it's important to preserve the fullscreen images etc as they are. If you're having trouble seeing a game, you should probably adjust your desktops gamma if you can.
PS: As for textures lining up, you just need to make sure your vertices and uv components are equal where the seams are and everything will be perfect. There's no magic there. One equals one and two equals two. Copy/paste the numbers by hand if you must.
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Well first you have to find a texture to do that properly. You cant just take a picture of a wall and expect it to fit in properly, it needs edited so that the bricks et are straight entirely, or you'l have alot of rotation to be done, and thats a real pain.