Sword of Moonlight Forum
Sword Of Moonlight Games => Complete Games => Diadem of Maunstraut => Topic started by: Holy_Diver on April 02, 2009, 04:57:59 pm
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In lieu of a "Diadem of Maunstraut" board, I'm making this thread for discussion...
Formalities aside, I'm thoroughly enjoying this game for the most part.
I could've waited to make this post, but I wanted to say one thing before I forgot about what seems to be a clipping bug (of which I'm sure there might be many, but nonetheless...)
This bug bit me particularly sorely because I ran into it after my first successful go thru the section of the earth realm which won me the earthen armor (exact name wanting) ...basically upon my exit I headed immediately for the save point just outside the cave, and in my eagerness I found myself fallen thru the hillside, and to make matters worse this soon resulted in my HP hitting 0 no less (apparently the default action once without solid fooding)
Normally this might not warrant fixing under such already buggy (and generally irreconcilable limitations) but being as it is right behind a save point, I suggest giving it a once over before your next release iteration (please)
I'm not sure I have any further technical complaints which do not seem indigenous to SoM itself. But I feel like for all the talk of great difficulty in the publishings surrounding DoM, though there is a fair dose of genuine challenge, much of it appears to be simply the product of giving great one-hit kill power to the monsters of DoM. It would be far more rewarding I think to somehow limit the ability of normal monsters to do so.
(In turn perhaps items could be made to delay the player before successive use inorder to return some damage potential to monsters)
In fact the later game is not so difficult at all due to the unlimited spawning of baddies and no exp leveling off. I realize it is probably difficult to balance the game, and SoM perhaps ties your hands in terms of growth formulae... but perhaps at least you could balance out the early stage of the game by doing something like letting the player start with a full set of knight armor. It is after all very heavy, and the astute player might decide to discard it for the leather armor for more freedom (at their own risk)
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Furthermore it seems a bit paradoxical for a chosen champion of sword and magic on a quest for a king to begin completely naked without weapon or magic. Perhaps you should even begin with a holy endowed mace, and a significant attack spell (though the bullet would seem much)
To further balance that you could greatly increase the undead and bug population.
Another nice feature if possible might be to make the larger monsters more powerful. They do have a longer reach, but it would be nice if size always equaled a greater challenge. Also again the immediate respawning I think actually makes the game easier (not what you want if your goal is challenge)
edited: Also there are a number of errs and oversights in your online documentation (maps etcetera)
Just some thoughts, and probably not the last of them.
I realize SoM is probably a bit of a straight jacket (though I have a fairly thorough grasp of its capabilities -- ie. with little time in it's trenches) but it never hurts to share impressions. Plus btw, though I'd admit this is an unexpected place to say so, I think I'm in the impression to remake SoM according to open and state of the art standards, so come what may, someday you will probably have a chance to do virtually anything with DoM you could possibly imagine. So here's to the future~
PS: Great job! Can't wait to find out if I get to do battle with The Master Therion himself...
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Thanks for posting. That's fine that you posted this here, I will not move it. However, if someone else posts about DoM, it will more than likely get integrated into a single thread. This thread will be their home...
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First off, thanks for the compliments on the game. I expected heavy criticism, which I've gotten on many levels, and I attribute that to DoM being not only the first game I've ever made, but my first experience with any game-making editor.
...remaking the game, I would have done several things different, but that's just not looking possible at this time. Who knows, a DoM 1.5 might surface one of these days.... to be honest, it was rushed in places, and overwhelming at times. I blame my own ego for almost taking on an entire team's work....
I'm a musician first and foremost and this project was a bonus to the soundtrack, not to mention the ode' to King's Field and its fans. ^_^
I apologize about the bug which plunges you to your death. You're the first to tell me of it, but a fairly simple workaround would be to use the Fruit of the Healing Tree (or should you have it, the Staff to the Shadow's Abyss) upon starting to fall - to warp to safety.
If you've saved ala Ring of Salvation, join the growing group of people who had minimal hit points and saved mid monster's swing, or saved halfway down a pit.... ^_^
Granted you shouldn't have to work around bugs (mine and SoM's) and I hope you'll still be able to finish the game.
As for the damage and difficulty, I've been told a rainbow of opinions on them. A select few found the game too difficult to pass the first group of enemies. Another group found it a pleasant experience at enemies making critical hits from the start. More incentive not to get hit, right? ...then of course, the hotshots that thought the game was too easy.
As for the story, that would probably be one of those "rushed" things. Musician, game maker, story teller, potato juggler seems to be the hierarchy of best to worst in my recreational jack of trades abilities.
*_*
Thanks again for your input and I hope you stick around here.
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I realize SoM is probably a bit of a straight jacket (though I have a fairly thorough grasp of its capabilities -- ie. with little time in it's trenches) but it never hurts to share impressions. Plus btw, though I'd admit this is an unexpected place to say so, I think I'm in the impression to remake SoM according to open and state of the art standards, so come what may, someday you will probably have a chance to do virtually anything with DoM you could possibly imagine. So here's to the future~
PS: Great job! Can't wait to find out if I get to do battle with The Master Therion himself...
To remake SOM, @@. Hehe, if you understand that thing on that kind of level, Im pretty certain I won't be of any use to you if you try to make some games with it.
All things aside though, I had my own opinions on DoM (as I am sure Tom recalls hehe) but I try to remember (now that I have tried making my own game more than ever!) that this was basically a one man operation, and that fact still floors me to this day.
All games made with this tool will have bugs, all the KF's themselves had some bugs ( I can show you if you like) but the game itself is very well made IMO.
As for the opinions, they are just that, and we all have em. I am sure when I release DD, if anyone even bothers playing it hehe, that it will get criticized for TONS of bugs I already know exist and can't do anything about, that wont bother me, but as for the design of the game, its really up to the programmers opinions as to how it turns out.
I didnt see eye to eye with Tom on some things on DoM, starting difficulty, low clip plane, but I figured what the hell, he made it as he saw fit, and its what he wanted..and I am lucky to get the chance to enjoy it :) I feel that way about any game given the chance to nitpick, even the one I am making certainly doesnt satisfy me...but we all make sacrifices on some things to gain in other areas.
I guess what I am saying is, I hope no one dogs on my game too bad lol, and I will be very happy if its anywhere near as nice as DoM was.
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Tom, do you think there would be a good need of a DoM section on the forums? With your walkthrough and maps I never really thought it would be worth having since anyone can get the info they need there, but I suppose there is always room for discussion.
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Nah. I never intended DoM to have it's own forum. I was hoping the maps and other stats on the site would answer a large amount of questions.
Any additional DoM posts, I'll just add them here. This will be known as the Diadem of Maunstraut thread. ^_^
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I noticed yesterday playing DoM the draw distance appears to be obscured by drawing a successive number of black semi-transparent overlays to the screen. I could've sworn some of the Japanese SoM games I've played had hardware "fogging" happening, but it could've simply been an oversight on my part. I don't think hardware fogging would've been unheard of for DX for SoM at the time, but I could not say for certain.
I'm sorry to be so casual btw about remaking SoM (from scratch if I said so) ...it just happens I'm involved in developing some state of the art technologies and a SoM is actually a very simple demo of what exactly said tech is primarily designed to do. So it should be a happy marriage. I won't ever be making a SoM game with the original tool, but I will probably see that all of SoM's features are carried over... so unless I can farm off some very high level (ie. easy) programming work to someone else, I will probably become intimately familiar with SoM at that time. I have plodded thru just about every SoM screen however.... though I did have some display difficulties which John has been coaching me through. I'd hoped to be able to use Virtual PC (which I thought would also probably let me put SoM games in a window) but I found out late last night my Windows OS was not supported.
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SOM definitely has hardware fogging. You choose the draw distance, and then a fraction of the draw distance to begin fog based on the color for the fog you choose.
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Hmmm... there is no fogging in my DoM game. I don't know if the driver is using a fallback or what. Should DoM have hardware fog?
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Err, maybe I meant software fogging, but nonetheless it should have some fog I am pretty sure...though the game really just has a very low draw distance.
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Fog is a very specific function pretty much always performed on hardware save for when everything is done in software. It's basically per pixel... so if you KF game is fogging the cutoff should appear very gradiated (per pixel) and round. The effect I'm seeing right now is straight (not round) and has only two or three gradiations.
I'm going to monkey with the system options some...
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I can't tell for certain, but I think the TL (don't know what that means -- maybe TnL) mode maybe disables hardware fog. The other mode definitely looks smoother, but I didn't hunt around for a nice open area to check the horizon curvature.
I did notice that the non-TL mode seems to come to a crawl with 16bit colour, because it's emulating it I would guess. The TL mode probably emulates it as well (on my hardware) but seems to perform better so any slowdown isn't noticed. I mention this because I think I discovered SoM looks much better in 16bit colour. It just looks more lofi, which is kinda how I take my KF 8)
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Well, I used true color on most of my custom textures, so if you ever play my game youll want to run it in 32 bit mode hehe...else it really looks retarded in some areas.
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Actually I think modern drivers just map the 32bit colour to 16bit colour, so it won't look as retarded as you think. It actually just gives it a sort of interesting texture. You should try it. Most all lcd screens on the market can't do anything close to 32bit colour anyway (yeah, one step forward, and two steps back)
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I guess to answer that question, I set the fog on DoM to 0. That would mean there is no fog.
The fog effects looked bad with a short draw because of the "sudden draw" look of it. Turning the fog off and a black background created more of a realistic darkness effect.
Trismegistus takes advantage of SoM fog features. The "sudden draw" is a little less noticeable in Trismegistus because that game has a higher draw distance.
The draw in Diadem of Maunstraut is very short, but it beats the alternative. Enemy spawning is based on draw distance, and enemy projectiles have virtually NO collision detection. Not to mention, I didn't want to have to walk a good ways just to run into that same enemy again.
This has to do with me being a collector in games; I farm enemies for drops in virtually all games that, well, have enemy drops. Does that mean I'm OCD?
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Mystery Solved>>
What about projectile collision detection though? They seem to collide against everything for me.... even other projectiles!
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PS: If anyone sees this^
That is sort of interesting that the baddies spawn from behind the shadow horizon. I thought the draw distance in DoM is ok for that dark claustrophobic feel... but if you were just trying to get the respawn rate up, I wonder if you can't make certain equipment shorten the clip distance (ie. respawn) ...which would in effect (or side effect) increase the encounter rate for exp and drops.
I kinda feel the respawn rate for DoM is a bit much. It took a while to find out the healing tree fruit transports you though, so maybe I was doing double duty backtrack wise. Still doesn't seem right to have stuff popping backup just because you looked over your shoulder :twisted:
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I too liked the overwhelming darkness feel that the low draw gives as well, but respawn rate seems to truly be dictated by draw distance. It was a happy compromise, I thought.
As for the projectile collision detection, it certainly does depend on the projectile fired. Even with that short a draw, I can get an arrow through the wall from a Soror Ionesco.... not to mention, most projectile from lower levels will hit the character's feet.
SoM collision detection seems to be wacky in general from system to system. Some move object commands will be off on different computers....
I think you falling through the floor (which is something I have yet to experience) is a decent example. I think me getting shot through the walls (which is something you have yet to experience) is another decent example.
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Object movement is definately weird on different computers, if not broken on some...and it drives me insane!
I have two parts in my game that have a continuous moving object, one is a mill wheel, the other is a stream of light coming from a lighthouse.
On one PC they move nearly ok (though the object movement timer really doesnt work right in SOM) on another pc they get stuck halfway through the cycle and sit for about 10 seconds then whip around really quick for a few cycles.
Maybe it is processor speed related? The fast the computer I run on the worse this gets.
Maybe you guys who know the ins and outs of SOM can help me with this when I get my game to testing phase.
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The problem you mentioned seems fairly cosmetic....
On John's decked out demo, he's got these events to move the player across a chasm.... works like a charm on one PC, another PC it throws the player in to the depths.
Why? It really does appear that some SoM parameters are different from PC to PC.
....but why? Once again, I don't know. John doesn't either.
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I can tell you the collision detection is probably a function of the frame rate. It sounds like collision is handled by time based simulation rather than trajectory tracing/intersection routines. So if the frame rate is low, then the simulation will be very likely to pass thru things undetected. Usually these things are done outside the framerate because they actually need to be finer grained. But either way, I doubt there is any other factor here other than cpu time. So increasing the priority of your SoM game might also help alleviate this.
For the animations, the situation is also similar. If if it's slowing down and speeding up, it is probably not a realtime animation (in sync with the system rtc) ...though if your system has a messed up rtc that might also explain it (say perhaps if SoM is using some legacy timing routines) ...but most likely what is happening, is the animation is just not synchronized, so when things are speeding up and slowing down, it might reflect the load other processes are having on your system. Again giving SoM (the runtime game exe) a higher priority would help aleve this.
It's possible SoM runs these simulations in separate processes which could also help explain why they seem to fluctuate independent of the game proper. In which case you might have to adjust the priority of those processes independently.
Lastly the cpu load might not be properly pipelined in accordance with the graphics hardware api calls, in which case your graphics could be causing a bottleneck which would cause these things to chug. If they do run in a separate process, you probably don't have to worry about that (outside of general performance concerns) but if they don't, it's possible the software could not foresee all possible iterations of DX, which could now be throwing a wrench into the works. Not to mention who knows the how DXs backwards compatible runtimes work, or the quality of their implementation (because really Microsoft probably cares little to see that old games continue to work... unlike OpenGL, each new version of DX is a completely new beast)
So pretty much you can chalk all of this up most likely to simplistic design thinking on SoM's part, shady backwards compatibility philosophy on behalf of DX, and perhaps most importantly, how much of a priority SoM (and any subprocesses) is getting on your system.
Anyway, I haven't tried some of the other scenarios (windmill animations and other tricks & hacks) on my machine, but everything seems to run well for me. Projectiles all work as you'd expect, which suggests the collision routines are very generalized. Striking type attacks do go thru walls, and the enemies on the other side seem to be attacking at me... but that is more of an AI thing... but if I fire a spell at an enemies spell, the two actually cancel out... so my collision processing seems to be fairly fine grained to say the least. I doubt having a too powerful machine is a problem. But I don't want to speculate too far.
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Well I can definately tell things operate better (other than 'animated' events which like you said probably sinc with the system timer somehow) on my quicker machine.
Most of the collision bugs you probably are seeing have to do with the map parts' mhm files. Like John instructed me a while back, make the .mhm or 'collision' data models as simple as possible else weird things happen. For instance, if I build a 5m high square for an mhm file it will work much better than if I had built say that 5m high block out of 5 rows of blocks. Where polygons meet, SOM can easily allow you to walk through...this is no more apparent than the meeting of a wall polygon to the floor polygon. So if a wall file had been created out of many polygons, the possibility of spells to fly through it is relatively high.
When I made custom map pieces I had to make my wall collision data just a bit larger than the graphical block I used for the walls, else if they merely butted up against one another (wall to floor) the character would fall through happily to the non existant floor of death below.
I can already tell you, some of the .mhm files that come with SOM are buggy this way, especially a few of the indoor sets that use walls that are more than simple single faced polygons. If you use some of the more intricate parts that have cylindrical columns etc, I noticed a few had unique collision files and I could likely (and have a few times) walked through them. In Trismegistus for instance, I accidentally fell off the bridge in the fire realm that has the invisible walls on all sides to keep you from falling off hehe.
On the flip side (and annoying side at that) creating map pieces also caused issues when I did oversize a collision file in that the character couldnt easily walk over two side by side pieces. It is quite odd how picky it is, but there definately is a low tolerance for error on these files, and a high possibility with enough pushing at some walls that you will fall through them.
Heck, i just went through a wall in Demon's Souls last night that I shouldnt have been able to get through, so shit happens hehe.
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I never thought about collision detection and animation having to do with the frame rate - then again, I'm really not experienced with this sort of thing.
One thing though, according to the From Software Sword of Moonlight page (www.fromsoftware.jp/main/soft/som.html) SoM has extremely low system requirements. We're talking you've got to have a Pentium II 300MHz processor, 64 Meg of RAM and 8 meg of Video Ram. Generally speaking, most of the computers (well, I can talk for myself, Todd, Martin and John - guys who helped test Trismegistus) have PCs which are many times greater than all those requirements.
I wouldn't really think "priority" in the Task Manager (if that's what you meant by priority) would matter much as recent computers should have SoM screaming.
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I'm wondering if it's a compatibility issue more than anything. After all, the From Software SoM page says that 2000 & XP is unsupported. (based on the google translation of the page - vista wasn't released at that page's last update)
"Unsupported" doesn't mean "incompatible", but it might account for some of the engine's strange phenomena.
There's also the hardware compatibilities in general. If frame rate is really a factor for the collision and animation glitches, like you said, wouldn't an "unsupported" graphics card contribute to that?
Perhaps even software factors as well - I like what you said about Direct X. Might we have a whole lot less glitching if we were all running version 7.1 or 8.0?
Perhaps SoM doesn't really need to be completely revamped - maybe it just needs a few patches for hardware and software compatibility sake. ^_^
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A lot of times software developed for older equipment behaves funny on modern equipment, and can surprisingly consume a lot more resources than you'd expect. Also the minimum requirements assume SoM is the only process at play. Realtime processes can be very fickle when sharing resources in any environment. I know for a fact I can adjust SoM's so that it will play at a snails pace on my graphics programming machine, which as you say has specs several times over what Fromsoftware lists as the minimum requirements.
PS: Also minimal requirements assume minimum resolution etcetera!!
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Interesting!
Do you think that changing the priority might really effect the animation, perhaps the collision detection?
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Upping the priority generally helps any application that does time dependent things, like music/video players, and games that keep a steady frame rate, etc. You'd just have to try and see (if you think you're experiencing problems with a given machine)
You can change the priority of a process directly with Windows' Taskmanager (google it if you need to) but there are other more automated ways, if you find that helps.
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I guess I'm offtopic, but this is the DoM thread so....
I'm really enjoying this game. It doesn't quite feel like KF, but then again it's not KF I suppose... don't get me wrong, in many ways it's more interesting on it's on merits.
My game is about an hour and a half in (though I'm sure I've played much longer -- misadventures and all) ...just some odd questions though.
Early some kind of arch demon fiend or whatever with wings spawned near the fire/earth lair entrance. I promptly slew him in return for an Icon of Life, but I'm not sure exactly what he was doing there, or what his comment meant. Perhaps I missed something?? I think maybe he was the demon lord of the earth lair, but I'm not quite sure.
I gave the guy in the wind lair, the servant of Baal, 5 grand to press his button, but now he's demanding 5 more, and won't let me back into his shop. Is this a bug that he reset himself or what? Though I did find another button nearby (beside the wind boots) but I haven't checked to see if that corresponds to the passage of death or whatever (AND I'D HATE TO BE THE POOR SOUL WHOSE JOB IT WAS TO FIND OUT)
^I'm also wondering if the death passage has reset or not now (turned my game off before checking)
You know, I'm pretty sure I had a third concern, but it has slipped my mind for now (where it ever there in the first place)
Oh another question (not the "3rd" one) ...I think your map lists a healing ring or something in the room with the young girl in the cave, but there is nothing there. Also I'm a little curious if is any regenerating equip to counteract some of the Sonellian equipments' effect.
Another thing I remember about your map, is you mislabeled the Wind Lair Key in the room with the corridor thru the four seals.
Anyway, I hope this isn't your last SoM game... I'm not the kind of person to find time to play fan games. But DoM is really good, and it's been a while sense a KF game was released. I've played a bit of Tri as well. I'm less certain if I will finish it (I so loath puzzle games) but it's sucked me in. It will probably be after I finish DoM and KF1 (on my PS3 and the remake as well perhaps) for that matter before picking it backup though.
Speaking of the remake. Have you considered remixing it some. Making it more difficult like DoM, and changing things around some to make it more rewarding for those who have recently played the original. Actually From' should've added a remix version to SoM in the first place. I say never do a straight remake without a remix.
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Btw, do you think you (and your musical friends) would be up to reproducing the score of the remake, so you could effectively remix the music as well somehow. That would be cool.
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I'm glad that you are enjoying the game. It certainly has its flaws, but it's enjoyable to me as well. I've made what I thought would be fun, and have gone through the game twice myself.
I've considered a newer version of DoM - perhaps a "hard mode" patch or MOD. (which would probably be similar to quite a few older game "hard mode's" - mostly consisting of raising enemy stats and lowering player stats and benefits.)
The demon in the Castle Imbrium hall is more of a cameo and an experience pump more than anything.... what they say doesn't contribute to the story.
Giving Eidolon 5,000 to deactivate the traps really will activate the traps. Him repeating the offer is probably an error on my part..... regardless, the traps are deactivated. (You should try to get Lustrate and the Wind Tower Shield without deactivating the traps in the corridor of death. ^_^ Talk about hard mode....)
The Bracelet of Healing is given by Meguh Meelah (the young girl) when you "send her to safety".
Thanks for the oops on the map.... unfortunately, I don't have access to that server to correct it at the moment. (it's on different webspace than Trismegistus or swordofmoonlight.com)
I have no plans for the moment to create a new SoM game, nor any immediate plans to dress up the old ones. I have no plans to correct errors either - I'm currently quite busy with work and trying to maintain a social life. ^_^
My computer time is more confined to making new music.... music not intended for games.... and playing a few games - like Mega Man X8 and Arx Fatalis, which if I'm lucky, I can get an hour in a week.
....oh, and speaking of my musical friends, they all reside in my head. I think that music has consumed almost as much time from me as putting together the game. These projects, I didn't have help for the music - unfortunately.
I've got probably 3/4ths of the "source files" of the Maunstraut musics - but since my upgrade in software and hardware, I would have to make some adjustments before remixes could be put together.
If you're interested in high quality MP3s of the Diadem of Maunstraut music, you can download the "Maunstraut Soundtrack" on the DoM downloads page.
I recently let Todd use 4 tracks of newer music I've constructed for his new game. I'll let him provide the links to those if you are interested in hearing them to see how my audio creations have improved considering that "maunstraut midi" stuff is sooooooo 2005. ^_^
Litterally - that music is probably close to 5 years old.
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2005 still feels like yesterday for me. I didn't realize midi was still in use circa 2005 though :twisted:
edited: I really don't want a spoiler (though maybe a hint if necessary) but I can't imagine how to direct that child to safety :?:
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3 of his tracks are in the DD soundtrack section, they are #s 11, 15 and 18. I will get you a link for the fourth shortly.
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I'm somewhat sad :(
I think my game has become broken...
The further chasm of floating magic circles in the Wind Lair castle keep no longer contains circles. I seem unable to progress. This is perhaps connected to the Baal servant resetting his event.
I wonder if this happened when I tried to load DoM into the SoM editor. I got most of it in there, but the map would not import. But I think I surely recall passing thru that chasm after doing so.
Anyway, any hints are welcome. If there is some way I can use SoM or something to force something, I'm up to it. I really can't fathom starting over at this point... and I just got the Truth Mirror and almighty Star or Lore pendant :(
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MIDI has actually come a long way in the past few years. I think towards the end of Windows 98, MIDI started using WAVtables. Meaning, for the midi sound, they actually record a bit of actual instrument via WAV - light years beyond the bloops and bleeps of convential MIDI.
Actually, the WAVTABLE set that comes with XP is quite a bit better than the set that came with Windows 98. You could probably tell a difference between the Maunstraut music (98 wavtable) and the newer clips I donated to Todd (XP wavtable)
I think one of the coolest things is you could spend $700 on an electronic drum set and not get as good a sound as the XP wavtable drums.... which just come with XP.
For the little girl to give you the healing bracelet, its a little on the ironic side. The same thing that sends her to safety is the same thing that sends you to safety.
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As for the magic symbols in the Wind lair, they're a bit tricky - but they have absolutely NOTHING to do with Eidolon's $5,000 deactivating trap offer. If they're the horizontal moving ones, and you walked around the level, walk out to the furthest symbol and it will reappear.
If its the vertical moving ones, there are two sides - one way leads to a dead end with the pit below the only way out. The other side (close to the corridor exit) leads to a small room which activates other symbols. From this room you can....
1) Go left (across symbols) to unlock a gate which will lead to the floor up....
2) Go right (across symbols) to enter the area with the elemental symbol needed to open the final doors.
If you raised the symbols on the corridor's side, fell and lived (for some reason) without unlocking the gate, you might have stucktified yourself.
>_<
Sorry.... If that's the case (I hope it's not) there are saved games on the site you can use so you wouldn't have to start over-over.
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I understand how they work. I did run across them once (the raising set) but I'm pretty sure I reloaded my game afterward. They are just not there in any visible fashion. It seems pretty clear the game is stuck. Unless there is someway I can hack it, it is probably lost. If I could create a custom save game withe SoM's debugging feature set or whatever, that might work, but the event triggers might be a mess.
You really should figure out what the hell is going on if there are bugs like this lurking about. I'd be happy to donate money to game makers, but it's kinda tough when this sort of stuff is possible (or more specifically, happens to me)
Are there not even ways you can make your char fly/go thru walls for these sorts of situations?
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About Midi, I don't know if you're technically using Midi protocols and interfaces to drive sequencers or whatever, but I guess I was referring to Midi sound architectures, which I don't think anyone is using anymore, unless they're trying to use make music come out of retro hardware for retro production/event purposes (I don't know what I'm talking about, but I did understand Midi thoroughly when I was very young)
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Those magic symbols are invisible from the bottom - if they should be there, and they're not (and you're just going on what you see in the game) then you probably stranded yourself.
Don't feel bad. If you did do that, you would be the 3rd person that I know of who's done that.... It's not like it's unheard of. If I was wrist deep in the Sorgsvarte map again, I would concoct something a little less trapping.
You mentioned hacking - with SoM you can.
1) change your PROJECT.DAT to PROJECT.SOM,
2) load it in SoM via Preview Project, (trying to look at the maps will probably just freeze)
3) load your save - use F4 (toggle) to enter "Atari Mode" (where you can "fly" through walls and use A to "fly" up and Z to "fly" down.) ....land in the spot of your choosing
4) save your game
....don't forget to change PROJECT.SOM back to PROJECT.DAT. Mind your "debug" settings, specifically items.... lest you end up with a bunch of extra stuff....
....cheater. ^_^
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As for MIDI sequencing, that's exactly what I'm doing. It's much more precise than realtime, but it takes many times longer to complete.
I wouldn't so much say its "retro" as it is innovative, creative, different.
Reminds me of a recent album I got my hands on - released March 2009, recorded with tube amps and 2" tape. (as apposed to everything digital)
Nothing like a new sound taken 30 years back in the production for a very fresh breath of air.
While I'm sticking with what's digital, the sequencing approach does offer some freshness. Almost this "devoid of life" feel (in a good way) to the music.
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This seems like the right strategy, but unfortunately whenever I load the game from within the SoM editor, all of the interactive objects are pretty much replaced with random other objects, so everything looks like insanity more or less, save for the interiors and monsters.
For instance, in place of the button in the middle of the chasm in question is a half smashed barrel, and pressing it elicits a barrel like response. Everything is strewn about chaotically.
My theory is this might have something to do with John's patching (my SoM is not patched btw) or could be memory corruption... or possibly it is because the map data is not in the project. Opening the map editor shows a void where a map might be, and choosing the import map data button doesn't seem to get me anywhere (I think that is for copying a map from another project into your project anyway)
PS: Generally speaking however, I think having any area of the game ever become unaccessible outside of linear plot advancement is very troubling. Same goes for enemies and other things like items for that matter. If btw, you're done with DoM... do you mind others working on it, to perhaps improve such holes, or even try to improve on the concept some? Really for games divorced from a release oriented market, I don't see the point in not continually polishing them (version by version) like any other piece of software.
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Strange - Perhaps I was too quick to judge "Oh, you probably just lifted those symbols and fell off 'em". That really looks like you've got some skewed model data, but to be honest, I'm not really sure why that's doing that. I wouldn't think that you'd have those errors without the game being patched, but I'm not certain.
As for the map data, that really doesn't have anything to do with your problem. I actually tested it last night, (I didn't want to just feed you a line of B.S.) and you should have been able to "hack" without having anything to do with the map.
Actually, if I would have loaded the map editor in my game, I would have gotten the 00 NEW MAP of wonder because the map data isn't in the correct corresponding folders.
As for the memory "corruption", it's more of a memory "leak" than corruption - at least, its supposed to be. A booboo in the GAME.EXE where it holds onto menu screens at 192kbs per menu open or remembering each map you've been to...
Naturally, having this area inaccessible at any time in the game was something I didn't intend. I expected everyone to ride the symbols (and clap while doing it - ok, not that), find their way to the gate to unlock the path that leads from the ground so that the symbol areas will be free to roam like the rest of the game.
Not so. Like I said, you're the 3rd person to contact me over grief of those damned symbols.
Perhaps if this project had a budget (more time than money) I could accomplish this very thing. Not to minimize your importance (because I really do appreciate every post you make here) but if I would have had 20+ people come to me about this problem, it would have been fixed by now. #_#
How long would it take to fix this and others? Probably not very long at all. I could probably do it on a weekend if I had the time. I've also mentioned that it would be a "someday" thing with me releasing v1.5. (with it getting to version 1.41, it's not like I did abandon it).
Heh, Trismegistus stopped at v1.0 for the moment because the frickin' project already took 4 months in itself to complete and "polish" - quite a bit more even including DoM's version updates.[/b]
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I think your problem is you are using the SOM data folders instead of the DoM ones.
When you create the DoM project, it has its own set of data including things like custom items, models etc. If you opened up DoM in SOM, and are using the default files that came with SOM along with John's converter, then you are likely now using the 'data' folder that is referenced by SOM itself. That would explain why certain model IDs and items etc may look completely different in DoM now.
For instance, if you were to use Dark Destiny's data folder in DoM it would be completely fubared. Maybe this is your problem. Try running DoM from the original place you extracted it to rather than through the SoM editor...or better yet, redownload DoM, pull just your save game file over to the brand new download and launch it and I am certain it will fix your problem.
As far as getting yourself out of a stuck area...rather than loading the game via SoM, edit the file, create a new item that warps you to a known safe spot on a certain map, use the SoM editor to make sure that item exists in your pack, resave as the .exe and you should never have to worry about getting stuck forever again.
Note to self, opening any complete and customized SoM game with a default SOM editor (no map files etc) can and will screw it up big time. SoM creates references in the files immediately after you open the project up, regardless of whether or not you actually make any changes while in the editors...I can almost 100% guarantee you that redownloading DoM will save you the pain of figuring out where the missing objects went.
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BTW Tom, I hate you for your ability to get DoM and Tris done so quickly (and yes I know Tris was 4 months) while DD is now going on its 8th month :cry:
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Let me be clear. I did unpack the DoM download archive again, just to make sure SoM didn't change anything when I tried to investigate DoM initially. It's possible that some change was baked into my save game after subsequent playing before I noticed any strangeness, but I think the odds of this are very low.
Now using the clean DoM filetree (just to assuage any paranoia) I can change the PROJECT.DAT to PROJECT.SOM as suggested. Then I can open DoM up into SoM. I can inspect all of the settings for the project, and probably change them successfully. However the map editor draws a blank (as you probably expect)
Now if I preview the game from SoM... I can use F4 to freely move about. But the object IDs as you say are randomly assigned. All of the objects are objects from the floor, but their locations are all randomly shuffled.
Afaik, SoM should be using the folders in the DoM filetree. But you might know better than me. If so, please advise me very carefully about what I could do to open up DoM into SoM perfectly.
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Alternatively, I wonder if it wouldn't help to put the working DoM filetree (same as the author uses) on the internet so the map editor and all will open up correctly the way the KF1 remake does.
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Well the only way to really get everything to work properly running it through SOM is to have a copy of all the SOM files Tom used to create the final game.
The map stuff like you said is expected not to work as the files needed for that are in the original project file and not the output directory that DoM was created with.
Tom recently sent me some copies of a test file to use to try to cause freeze ups, and I can't get those to work because my SOM files are different than his, eventhough he copied his entire DOM directory for me to use.
I suspect when the .exe is written it really is not the same thing as a renamed .som project file....but even if it were, its highly possible the object ID's that were referenced in one project dont match what is in your base files.
For instance, when you create DoM, you may have obj number one on your object table a barrel, and maybe object number 2 was a box. At that point the file is pointing at two places for the information. For this example, lets use the barrel object...when you open the DOM.SOM project (not the .exe but Tom's original files) the actual barrel in the editor is pointing at two different places to get the whole file...part of the file (the model, texture and .prf file) the DOM.SOM file is looking into the C:\programfiles\KF\SOM\Data\Obj directories to grab that information...the other part of the file (the name you called it and its location on the obj editor's list for DOM specifically) is looking at the actual directory that DOM.SOM file data is stored in. The two combined tell DOM.SOM how to act when you run it via SOM.exe
Alternatively, when Tom finishes his game and outputs the .exe file...the file that was originall DOM.SOM now becomes DOM.exe, and a few things happen. Number one, the files originally referenced in C:\ProgramFiles\KF\SOM\Data are now written into the output file and data files somehow, this includes textures, models and .prf files. (There are some custom files this doesnt happen, but lets not confuse the issue at hand with these rare occurences).
Now, this is where my understanding is very limited, but that new DOM.exe file and however it incorporates the models etc that were originally a part of SOM now has a whole new table it writes to that references all the object models and part configurations. There is certainly no guarantee in mind that this matches its original SOM configuration, and even if it does, it most certainly is possible that your install of SOM differs from Tom's.
To avoid this problem with Tom testing DD for me, I have just uploaded my entire installed SOM program folder to an ftp server that he downloads and runs on a seperate machine. That way I know he has the exact same fiile structure I do.
Even if Tom gave you all his files though, I really think that there is a big difference between the .exe output file than there was in the original project.SOM file it was created from.
If you want my advice, and Tom is willing, I would zip up your DOM folder, including your save game and get it somewhere that Tom can download it and see if it operates correctly using his original SOM set of files. Or alternatively see if Tom will copy his entire directory somewhere for you to download and overwrite your files.
Either way, I think the answer will be that the .exe really isnt 100% compatible with being renamed .som and edited with random SOM file configurations. The sad truth is your save file (hopefully you have more than one) is probably jacked up.
Sorry if my post is long and confusing...
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I think the problem is that you're trying to open DoM (whose configuration files were produced with the translated version of SoM) with the non-patched Japanese SoM.
When you open a project in SoM most of the resources are loaded from the SoM install directory not the project/game's folders and the Japanese-named resources don't match DoM's translated configuration files. The 'output' parts in the game's folders don't have the needed PRF files so basically it's what Todd was saying. I'm surprised the Japanese SoM will load an English project at all since the configuration files store the parts by name.
Thr PROJECT.DAT file actually has nothing to do with the *.SOM file or the GAME.EXE. The reason why you can rename the DAT to SOM and load it is because .SOM files pretty much just contain the project's name. You can actually make a text document, type a couple letters on it and change its name to x.SOM and it will load the project in SoM editor.
I think the DAT files are part of SoM's copy protection; the CD check normally happens when a runtime is output. It's possible to make a game with SoM's editor and then compile it manually without even using the Create Runtime fiunction- EXCEPT for making the DAT file. The DAT file only has a few bytes of data (maybe a checksum value verification of some sort), but a game will not run without a proper DAT file generated by the Create Runtime function.
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LOL yes, what he said.
Thank you for clarifying and correctifying my craptastic post=)
I am glad there are much smarter people out there willing to help hehe.
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<confused>Um, yeah! Wait, ok I got the part where you do stuff with the program and... something happens....</confused>
....I found this rock outside, it's got like stuff on it and its kind of heavy.
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Don't feel bad about the time frames for getting games done Todd. ^_^ I'm a whiz at minesweeper I can play for days; once you see my sweet moves you're gonna' stay amazed!
Seriously. Mouse = bad. I key QUITE a bit of stuff. It many times faster. I make games that way. Games good.
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I will go over this thoroughly when I have the time, because I want to understand all of this... but to be clear, what I'm getting immediately is, SoM likes to keep a centralized directory of all resources you might want to use in your game, then it draws from that to make your outputed runtime filetree (as opposed to you starting a new project filetree and copying what you want into it)
Does that about sum it up? Or that much at least...
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Btw, I can't be certain... but possibly why I'm stranded in the first place is the magic circle pads, as suggested, are invisible from the bottom, and all of them are raised up now.
A simple fix for this would be to reset their positions whenever that floor is entered. Or better yet, have them appear when you approach them, the way the sliding pads on that floor do. In general it would be cooler if those circles always only appeared when you got close (and even cooler -- only appear with some special item equipped)
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SoM likes to keep a centralized directory of all resources you might want to use in your game, then it draws from that to make your outputed runtime filetree (as opposed to you starting a new project filetree and copying what you want into it)
Does that about sum it up? Or that much at least...
Yes :)
If you play a game using the 'Test Map' or 'Preview Project' buttons, the game is run with SOM_DB.exe which looks for resources (Object, NPC models etc) in SoM's main file tree (located via a registry entry). If you play a game the standard way by launching GAME.EXE, it looks for resources in the 'output' game's file tree (located relative to GAME.EXE's position).
<confused>Um, yeah! Wait, ok I got the part where you do stuff with the program and... something happens....</confused>
No, no no!! I keep trying to tell you that something only happens when you DON'T do stuff with the program. Well... unless you're in the Southern Hemisphere, but then you have to type upside down or read backwards and really, that's just more trouble than it's worth.
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"(and even cooler -- only appear with some special item equipped)"
My current biggest gripe with SoM is they did not build in a counter or switch to toggle by having certain things equipped. It is quite stupid really, considering they made a new version of original King's Field using SOM and included with the software that didn't do things the original game DID.
For instance, in KF 1 (japan) you could obtain boots that allowed you to walk over some pits or chasms. I havent played through the SOM version of KF1 yet, but I know there is nothing in the tool to allow for this sort of ability.
Please, someone correct me if I am wrong..I would love to be wrong here.
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^DoM does some fancy stuff that couldn't be done without checking your inventory as far as I can tell. Plus I wouldn't think those boots would have escaped the remake :twisted:
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Good News: My DoM game seems to be back on track. I just needed to copy all of DoM's data files into my SoM data repository to do the trick.
My magic circles were all suspended, and ironically there is even a switch if you turn back left after hitting the mid-chasm button which makes the raised circles permanently reachable. The definite way to handle this event I think would be to reset the circles whenever possible if that final switch is not in place!!
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Offtopic: I have been playing KF1 again some to fill in my KF void. I had to reconfigure my joypad to continue playing DoM, and I remembered an odd setup I think I've used before for the old games (possibly for playing Armored Core) ...the basic gist is you map lookup/down to the X and Triangle button (dualshock controller) which I think is very intuitive. Then map the handed type buttons to the left/right buttons respectively. I ended up using the left trigger to use/run because it made it easier to look up/down while running. And magic to Square because it is close to the new looking buttons for easy vertical aiming. I always try to find vastly superior control schemes to the defaults, and anyway... I recommend everyone try it. In the meantime, I have to train my own brain a bit / break old habits.
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Tom, did you find a way to make DoM react to equipped items?
I can understand if its items in ones inventory, but I couldnt see one thing to make the game do things based on whats on your character at the time.
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My current biggest gripe with SoM is they did not build in a counter or switch to toggle by having certain things equipped. Please, someone correct me if I am wrong..I would love to be wrong here.
It can be done in a limited way by using the Strength/Magic stat. It's easier to do in games like Trismegistus where those stats aren't already in use for regular game combat.
To walk across bottomless pits for instance, you would have a pair of boots that when equipped increase the player's MAG stat to a value that couldn't be reached any other way. Then use events to 'plug' the pits when the MAGIC stat is at that unique value. This technique is only usable in some limited scenarios, but it's better than nothing. I'll send you an update of the Event Demo that shows what I'm talking about. Ignore the 'water passage' behind the start point; that event demo isn't complete yet.
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Ah, ya I get you. I can see how it could be done, but like you said, in a game not like Tris, where stats are obvious, the outcome is lame.
I have instead just made items that appear in the use item option and require the player to use it rather than equip it. Then I tie an event that is tied to the usage. Its not quite aquarion boots or feather boots, but it will have to do.
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I think maybe if SoM really ever caught on, perhaps patches would've been released to add some basic functionality down the line?? I don't get why this sort of stuff is missing (bows/flying monsters, falling, and other stuff mentioned) ...all of that could've also contributed to the lack of popularity (that and not being very open-ended -- but come on, it could at least do KF proper some justice)
Still it's amazing what it can do, which is all the more reason to scratch your head about what it can't.
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Actually the real motive was probably From' imagined the possibility of SoM games competing directly with it's KF games. In which case, perhaps there was some thinking to possibly eventually release a licensed version (for full fledged games)
From' actually began as an application company, and inadvertently found itself making games.
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The scenario can be a little more usable if you don't let the player leave the area with the 'uber' Item. To set up an example: when player's MAG stat is 200+ a 'magic' walkway will appear over a chasm- and the only way for player to get MAG to 200+ is by equipping 'Levitation Boots'. To prevent the player from keeping the boots and being too powerful for the rest of the game (due to their 200+ MAG stat), they must leave the boots on a pedestal after they cross the chasm or the exit door won't open.
To give another dumb variation on the basic premise: you could make two types of Levitation Boots: one +5 MAG and the other +200 MAG. After the player found the +5 boots somewhere in the game, make an event near the chasm that asks (but only if the player is carrying the +5 boots) 'do you want to charge the Levitation Boots with a brief surge of magical energy'. If the player answered 'yes', replace the +5 boots with the +200 boots which will make the chasm crossable when equipped. Then, when the player leaves the area, trigger a message saying 'the magic surge has drained from the boots of Levitation' and swap the +200 for the +5. That way the player could keep the Boots of Levitation, but they wouldn't be an uber item.
There might also be some scenarios where you could make a passage filled with Enemies that inflict a nasty status (Paralyze Poison etc) to where a normal player couldn't make it through. Then make one piece of equipment in the game that raised resistance to that particular abnormal status enough for the player to be able to make it through the passage. That would in essence make the player have an that item equipped in order to pass.
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Really most of SoM's shortcomings are in it's event options. If they had added a few more event parameters they could have done jsut about anything (except bows).
Some events I would have liked to see are:
-if has "x" item equipped, then - {parameter}
-if "x" magic used on object
-if "x" magic used near object
-if object attacked
-loop "x" number of times (where x could have an infinite variable)
one nice feature of that last option would be to give objects a continuous animation or to loop a sound effect or screen effect. this could be useful with lightning/thunder, water fall sounds etc.
unfortunately due to that weird system clock issue we discussed earlier, timing object animation and sound repetition based on the SoM timer function doesnt work particularly well.
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-if object attacked
When I put the game I was making game aside for other projects, I was toying with this exact possibility. You might be able to strip the texture from an NPC (making it invisible) and place it in the object to be attacked. Then you can trigger the event you want upon the invisible NPC's death. It's likely that you could even import a new non-animated MDO file as 'NPC class' if you fooled around with the PRF file. That way you could make scenarios like vines covering a cave that would 'die' if hit with a fire spell.
-if "x" magic used near object
-if "x" magic used on object
Similar for triggering an event upon casting a spell on an Object (offensive spell that is); just max the invisible NPC's defenses to everything except the chosen spell's element.
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ya I have a couple places where I am toying with that and it does work. You might find it interesting that in a few places I moved some enemies into the npc directory and they work as well (with a few animated oddities, but none the less, it does work). I suppose you could possibly even create enemies out of npc's....I am going to try this soon as well...though im expecting the animation oddness to cause problems.
now if i could just get a way to have a bow weapon i would be so happy hehe. I wouldnt care if it required ammo, would just like to have the bow weapon in the game.
if SOM is ever 'remade' we definitely will have a great list of improvements that will be needed.
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Wouldn't hurt to make a running thread for wanted features. Those sorts of threads are always interesting anyway. The wants could just even include general stuff as well (such as what would you like to see [more/less of] in a KF game)
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I noticed that my Elapsed Time clock seems to repeat itself whenever I start the game. I dunno if it's always been that way or what, but my saved game time seems to be identical, so I've probably put in way more than a couple hours :twisted:
I also gotta say I'm beginning to feel incredibly bad ass in this game. I'm a little worried it's gone from a challenging game at the beginning to a total pushover (currently heavily vamping HP and MP / never run out of magic, and can always cast healing magic in a pinch) ...I kinda blame the no-brainer style of KF combat though. SoM has blocking enemies, but it's always too easy when you know your magic will always stun. KF1 is even easier what with the one-two magic/attack combos (though I started playing KF1 after getting used to SoM and it was kinda rough because I forgot I kept waiting for the monsters stun phase to wear off)
I feel like it never really gets difficult other than pacing yourself, and possibly dealing with multiple attackers. I can't help but to keep thinking KF could totally use some rethinking in the action dept.
Could SoM make using an item deplete both stamina bars? If so that could even the playing field some. It would be interesting if casting a spell hit your attack stamina as well. That would force you to at least initiate a combo with an attack, and limit you to two hits before facing recharge.
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You sound like a perfect candidate for demon's souls...that game is all about becoming very very challenging throughout the whole game.
Even at the end of the game you are still a pussy compared to most of your opponents (something I personally don't like).
SOM can have items that when used (from the backpack sort of way) could remove magic etc...however in regards to slashing a sword it cannot.
The only parameters equipped items can have is basically one continuous helpful or detrimental effect. The area of SOM that lets you configure this per piece of equipment gives you an option for what effect, and what potency of that effect. For example you could have a hp drain and have the potency be 5, so every counter tick it removes 5 hp. But you couldnt have an item that removed both 5 hp and 5 magic points per tick.
My game will have a few items that have a detrimental 'sponge your stats' effect, but overall, as I really hate things that demand upkeep (like life drain items and items with a duration) there will be next to none of this in DD. I will try to accomplish making end game stuff challenging by scaling higher magic casting cost, scaling high end weapons' weights (the higher the weight the harder to recover and reswing) and by really toughening up the enemies AI and stats in the end game.
I am also not a big fan of limited access to restorative items...so like KF1 and 2, I will be utilizing the 'crystal flask' system with a regenerating source of hp/magic refreshing items (if youre willing to backtrack to a fountain to refill them).
I guess for me I can probably say I think nearly the opposite of you on the character being badass at the end of the game. To me I don't want to have to spend time concentrating just to beat trash enemies (common enemies) i would rather be able to cut right through the normal stuff when I am at the end of the game and have a big challenge on the boss fights.
As I plan on incorporating maybe a half dozen or more super rare drop items, it will be my intention to force the collector type players into killing a monster probably 100 times to get the rare drop. I dont really want them to have to struggle to kill these enemies.
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I know what you mean, but basically I'm feeling very invincible in DoM atm. I think probably mostly because the continuous monster respawn (which after you get vamping equip is just a constant onslaught of instant recovery... if nothing else KF has always been about pacing your ever deeper journey, so having everything on infinite tap just seems weird -- but I can always neuter myself if it really gets to me at some point)
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DoM does have a high respawn rate - I did that for enemy farming sake. It wouldn't make much sense for there to be an enemy drop, and you run out of enemies.
I also did that (the collector in me) likes to reach uber levels in all level gaining games I play.
I'm thinking there is roughly a 30% regen rate - meaning if there is a group of 10 monsters, 3 of them will always come back.
I could have changed the appear rate, or the number of monsters to return - and while I do that for a handful of monsters, for the most part, they always keep coming back.
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I am trying to keep DD king's field-like on its respawn. That is one of the things I am putting on my checklist for the folks who are going to beta test it because I want to know their opinion on too little or too much respawn.
Speaking of which, I am going to need beta testing soon, already have Tom lined up for it if he has time, but I would definitely like a pool of folks to tell me what they like or dislike before I try to actually release it.
Any volunteers let me know.
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I'll be available Sunday night, possibly late Sunday afternoon. I'm away from my SoM computer until then.
I'll just download the newest DD folder from your server?
^_^
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Is it normal for the Dark Guide to go away after a final use?
Btw, pointless to mention, but after I plowed thru the elemental seals (I didn't realize the boss fights were there :twisted:) I checked my exp, and noticed it hadn't gone up. Plus I checked my exp before hand, and I happened to have 37000 on the head, and was a lv37 Dragon Knight, so I reckoned that must mean I'd maxed out my exp 8O
I thought... uh oh, now this game is gonna start kicking my ass?! I noticed at least my str/mag was still rising, but eventually I leveled up again (fairly quickly in the final map) and realized the seal bosses must just not yield exp, and it was shear coincidence my exp going in was such a perfectly round number :twisted:
:idea: Or unless there was some sort of level cap before unlocking the seals
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I just picked up the golden key, and did some backtracking for missed treasure chests. While I was in the wind realm I decided to revisit the Forgotten Blade before going to the gold chest. I'd cheated and noticed on your online map the *SPOILER* switch that drains the water */SPOILER* ...and I was very disappointed to find that I could've easily grabbed the F. Blade a way back. I had presumed the only way to get it would to be to have a dragon crystal like item in your inventory. That would've been much more clever I think...
I also noticed while loading your data into SoM there is a dragon crystal like item in DoM I think. The blessed holy emblem or something. Turns out that was the item in the wind lairs gold chest at that (though I think it still requires blessing??)
Anyway, just complaining that it would've been smarter I think if the F. Blade was adjusted to be about as powerful as the Apostasy and required grabbing the F. Blade, then dying, then being reborn still with the blade on you (like the way to get the Moonlight in KF2)
^That might still work. But just saying, come on, if it's so bad ass, make it trickier to get :twisted:
PS: Was that dark Moonlight look in the SoM repertoire? Or did you make it by processing the texture file outside the editor?
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Btw!! I'm really enjoying DoM. I'd kinda like to play with SoM, but I don't feel like devising a whole game. I kinda need the experience anyway. Do you think you'd let me download the DoM project space before the runtime is built, so I could maybe cookup a remix version of DoM?
DoM and Tris are fun btw... they're a lot like Kenneth Anger gets to make a KF game or two :twisted:
PS: I'm also considering remixing the KF1 remake. But I think I'd do a better job of that, after cutting my teeth on something I would not want to change up so much.
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The dark moonlight sword is in the files that comes with SoM. It is likely in there to create the scene where the fairy restores the sword for you in original king's field.
If you don't already have it, download SoM and install it and just take a gander at the items and enemies etc you can mess around with. If you just familiarize yourself with the item, object, npc and enemy editors you will have a great understanding of many of the choices that are made in some of the games you will play made on it. Maybe you have already done that.
If you aren't interested in creating a whole new game at least create a simple map with some enemies, items, lighting etc just to see how things work.
As far as the dragon crystal ressurecting you after death, there is a utility in SOM that allows you to customize the things that happen upon player death. In DD, I will have the King's Fieldesque ressurection upon death if a dragon crystal is in hand.
The way it is accomplished (if anyone cares) is a rather simple (yet maybe difficult to think up?) counter/event setup on the player death system event.
All you need to do is have two events in every map, both set to always on and each modifying a counter value dependant on having the dragon crystal in your inventory. If you have the item, the always on counter is set to a 1, if you dont have it, the always on counter is set to a 0. Then in the first leaf of your death event you add an IF/END IF statement that searches for the counter to be set to a 1. If it is set to 1, then you fire recover all, warp player basic, change player parameter (remove the dragon crystal that is consumed) and end the IF statement. Tadda.
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Those seal bosses have an even 1000 Experience points. Probably a toss up between a game error on my part or a counting error on your part.
^_^
Is it normal for the Dark Guide to go away after a final use? Um, no. Not entirely sure what you mean there.
Even if you didn't find Akryal's Sword until later, it still has its benefits - it's a fire sword and actually casts a pretty mean spell. Fire Bad!!!!!
The dark moonlight sword is in the files that comes with SoM. It is likely in there to create the scene where the fairy restores the sword for you in original king's field.
I wouldn't have a problem if you created a remix of DoM. Actually, I think it would be pretty cool - as I never got to experience the game from an unknown standpoint. (I pretty much knew EVERYTHING about the game starting that first run)
Todd, do you have the DoM folder on your webspace? Do you care if I zip it up and sent it to him?
HolyDiver, do you have John's translations in your SoM? I'd hate for you to get the DoM project, and see barrels in place of switches.
I wasn't familiar with Kenneth Anger, but thanks to good old Wikipedia, I get the reference. Actually, most of my references are from my music collection... I think about 10% of my music is from the US. Mostly European black metal.... heh, those wild and crazy guys!
Ironically, I didn't reference those things directly, I referenced my music which referenced those things directly. ^_^
<shameless>Speaking of black metal, my new music is coming along pretty good.</shameless>
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SOM.com space is your space Tom, upload and distribute as you see fit. If you can ever fill the retarded amount of space they give me in storage (15000 gig or something?) then maybe I will care :P
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Yeah, I follow you, and understand the ins and outs of everything as well as anyone might... if I seem generally aloof or out of the loop, it's just because I'm always severely pressed for spare time (to enjoy or get into this sort of stuff)
PS: I posted this with a weird behaving usb keyboard I just plugged in, so I had to make some compromises... btw, I've been playing DoM on a HDtv (technically it's an amazing monitor that swings both ways) very awesome... also found out the F. Blade was the titualar SoM! Who knew~
The Divine SoM is too much btw... what is the diff between that model, and the other?
PS: I found the question mark... left shift + right shift??? Wtf is up with this keyboard???
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Surprisingly the game does look good on a large TV.
My brother hooked his PC up to a 1080p 50" that he has and was playing a few of the stages of my game for me to let me know what he thought. I was impressed how it looks.
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^The 16-bit colour mode looks really good too (well with my drivers at least)
I remembered why that keyboard was acting bizarre... I forgot I pulled half the keys off this laptop and rearranged them so I could program with it :P
Also had to edit Windows low level keymap which is actually a pain in the ass and not supported by any official/builtin tools (it's just a registry thing for OEM guys I think)
Anyway... I had a lot of other DoM stuff on mind that didn't make it out earlier. I probably can't remember half of them. The ones I mentioned earlier first...
Yes, my Dark Guide now goes away whenever I use it, so I pretty much have to use the RoSalvation first, use the guide, then reload if I want to keep the guide.
For Tom, about Akryl's sword, I don't think I mentioned that before, though I did grab it last night. In the middle of the night actually... couldn't sleep. That was when I decided to hook this laptop into the HDtv (like monitor actually)
I found another one of Akryl's Skulls later conveniently. A freaky head monster dropped it (is he supposed to wig out like that, or is that a glitch??) ...anyway, I'm assuming there can be only one instance of Akryl's Skull in the game, or am I wrong? And it's good to know where his skull ended up, after passing it along to that fountain :twisted:
Speaking of which, I think your online map is wrong again. I think it say Revenge of Ersatz, where I stole Chaos Lightning. I could be wrong though, but I think that is where I got CL. If not, I'd like to know where (the magic pedestals don't exactly tell you what magic you're learning)
I thought the petrified SoM or whatever would be stone in the remake, but I guess not.
Also I'm curious what event too the seal down from the right/left hand path area or whatever. Was it talking to the priest or whoever that blesses everything?
About remaking DoM. I can probably find the energy to remake it on two levels. One I can re-balance it and stuff, just change things around, like a basic remix. And two, I could probably build on to it to the point it's basically a sequel (though a retelling of the same events)
If you feel like you're spent on it, passing it on to someone else to monkey around with, would probably be a good way to extend it's life span.
If SoM permits it, I could probably almost double the number of maps in the game. I sorta feel like there should be areas in the elemental domains that are too difficult to venture into, until you've spent some time in all the elemental areas and have acquired some elemental weaponry. The exp seems to build up too fast, so it probably wouldn't be hard to cut it in half and double the game length. I think it would be interesting if the arch demons weren't actually antagonistic to the player, and instead feared the final boss, so that you talk to them to enter their realms to gain their power (which you somehow need to defeat the final enemy)
I think it would be cool btw to have a straight-up rock soundtrack for a remix.
If I can start playing with this remix idea, I'll probably make a new thread somewhere, so I can ask for advice about implementing different things (basically just -- is X even possible type stuff)
I will probably use the Japanese SoM unless I run into trouble. I might make a Japanese version of DoM while I'm at it. Just to further rub it into the face of the Japanese for not doing more with SoM :twisted:
PS: The problem I was having before with getting DoM into debug mode, wasn't a patch problem. It was just I hadn't thought much about how SoM organizes it's resources (ie. in a central filetree) ...once I copied DoM's data files into my SoM data filetree, everything seemed swell.
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Another odd thing I noticed. I dunno if this is supposed to happen, but when using the Star of Lore (and I think the Hell Hands) I gain MP (and possibly HP for the hands) whenever my magic connects. So like, if there are two giant plants next to one another, and I hit them with Chaos Lightning, I actually end up gaining more MP than the MP I needed to cast the spell (100MP) ...that just seems wrong. So I'm thinking, it would be better if these items only drained when using a weapon attack (and can SoM differentiate between the two, or is it just not that capable?)
Speaking of which, I get pretty depressed when I think about the state of SoM when it was released. I wonder if From never released patches. The fact that I have to reset that one button in the joypad config every time I turn it on is ridiculous. I can't remember if I got that to work by manually editing the config file way back (when I was playing Japanese SoM games without the tool) or not??
There are other such bugs, which just should not be there for a boxed product, unless they're just a side effect of Windows not being 100% backwards compatible to the time (speaking of which, Vista has a number of backwards compatibility options which I've yet to try with SoM executibles -- dunno if any of them might help)
PS: I also usually equip the ice armor when using CL, because the Truth Mirror guy/gal(?) says it amplifies magic (does it really work that way?)
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SOM can support tons of maps, however there may be an issue with how it loads visited maps into the RAM on your PC...if you have a powerful machine you may never have a problem...but for less powerful PCs it seems to chug after several map changes.
The controller remap bug can be fixed, it is an error somewhere in the output file...I forget exactly how to fix it, but Tom/John know how and will likely post the fix here.
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To fix that controller bug, for one method, you need a hex editor.
Open up the GAME.EXE in the hex editor and search for the TEXT string:
paddfg6 (case sensitive)
Replace it with:
padCfg6 (case sensitive)
Save it. Tada! Fixed! Actually, you can even fix it by replacing the padCfg6 with paddfg6 in the .ini file. (if you don't have or don't want to use a hex editor)
Such a simple fix, but since SoM was neglected....
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As for the Star of Lore and magic, I didn't realize this until I was almost done with the game. Even with the "magic absorb" setting low (5 out of 100), it is based on damage done - so with an uber spell like Chaos Lightning.... together they make unlimited magic. Oops.
I guess one work around is a similar workaround I used for Castlevania : Symphony of the Night.
I thought to myself, "Man, this game is too easy!! I totally dominate with the Criss?grim and a Ring of Varda."
Then I thought to myself, "I bet the game would be harder if I didn't use those."
....so I guess a workaround solution for you, would be to stop using Chaos Lightning and take off your Star of Lore if you don't want the game handed to you. ^_^
I know, that's something I wish was a little different myself.
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The Ice Armor does magnify magic power - by a little bit, just like the fire Armor magnifies physical power, by a little bit. Luckily, it's not as much of a "game leak" as the Star of Lore. The same number from "Increase" to "Absorb", everything goes to hell.
That's very strange about the Dark Guide.... I currently have no explanation for that one. Does it vary from map to map?
As for that "Supreme Lord Wyrm" (the freaky head monster you referred to) I've also noticed, despite much testing, that all the enemy models glitch pretty bad when their size is boosted to 3. (Actually, you can get their size to 9 ~if I'm doing math right~ because you can put their size to 3 in the parameter, and then 3 again in the placement, making even normal sized monsters ridiculously huge. They act blind and get stuck on walls and other obstacles something terrible when they shouldn't ....
Chaos Lightning is learned by just getting to Level 40.
I'll upload the DoM package, hopefully later today, and try to get that zip to you. Retelling the same story sounds great - however, I guess my initial expectations were that you'd remix the whole game.... not just a couple "levels".
I think it would be cool btw to have a straight-up rock soundtrack for a remix.
*shudders* If you would have said "metal" I would have laughed - I'm doing black metal versions of some of the music I made for Dark Destiny for some future label shopping.
I'm glad that DoM is finally working in your copy of SoM. Once again, I'll get that together (after work) and upload it for you....
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I'd like to consider myself a man of my word. (at least now in my life)
So here it is, after work, and here to download is the complete Diadem of Maunstraut project - WAVs and all.
DOM.rar (http://www.swordofmoonlight.com/DoM/DOM.rar) - 69MB.
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my mouth waters to download that and take a peak, but i dont want to mess up my files hehe.
mayhaps i will put this on my other machine!
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....so I guess a workaround solution for you, would be to stop using Chaos Lightning and take off your Star of Lore if you don't want the game handed to you. ^_^
I know, that's something I wish was a little different myself.
I'm just disappointed SoM works that way. The drain MP ability should obviously not go to spell damage??
I've dropped the SoL in favor of the Sonellian Charm, though I'd happily equip it to down some monster plants. I'm using the Sonellian Helmet and Shield with the Light Armor set. Might mix in some Abyss Armor, dunno. I gotta admit, I like it when the armor pieces are more accessorizable (read: esthetically interchangeable) than just a bunch of full sets.
That's very strange about the Dark Guide.... I currently have no explanation for that one. Does it vary from map to map?
It just disappears from my inventory after I cancel out of the view from now on. Also the servant of Baal just keeps asking for 5k no matter how much I give him.
Chaos Lightning is learned by just getting to Level 40.
I dunno why, but I just like to know what triggers what...
I'll upload the DoM package, hopefully later today, and try to get that zip to you. Retelling the same story sounds great - however, I guess my initial expectations were that you'd remix the whole game.... not just a couple "levels".
Well usually a remix just means moving treasure and enemies around, and maybe rebalancing some stuff. I will see how easy it is to copy whole level sections at a time I guess. I was thinking of doing like an alternate mirror world type thing with KF1... or something (on top of just mixing things up)
I think it would be cool btw to have a straight-up rock soundtrack for a remix.
*shudders* If you would have said "metal" I would have laughed - I'm doing black metal versions of some of the music I made for Dark Destiny for some future label shopping.
Not sure what you're getting at with Metal vs. Rock (Metal is a sub-genre afterall) ...I just meant guitars instead of organs / faster pickups / simplified chords. Classical with a contemporary soundtrack is always fun for a change. :twisted:
I'm glad that DoM is finally working in your copy of SoM. Once again, I'll get that together (after work) and upload it for you....
It's been working for a while. Sorry, I got it going (think I said so) not long after the local whose name starts with an H / escapes me (edited: HwitVlf) weighed in.
edited: Yeah! Quotes are working today :twisted: (oh nvm, the cited quotes, still not working :evil: )
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My guess on the item becoming consumed when used is perhaps you opened the .exe up as an SOM file, made a minor change somewhere by accident (maybe in the item type) and resaved?
If you have access to it, open up the parameter editor, check the item in question and make sure its not set to consume yes.
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Actually, the Dark Guide of Maunstraut is supposed to be a consumable item - that's the only way I could get the icon based map to display. (sort of like how the Phantom Rod only works displaying hidden doors as a consumable item)
I have a few Always On events, with a start condition of Dark Guide = 1 in the inventory, which puts it to the next leaf. (Control Active Leaf - Leaf 01)
The start conditions for Leaf 01 are basically:
Dark Guide = 0
Change Character Parameter (Item Dark Guide Set to 1)
Control Active Leaf (to leaf 00)
The information in the parameter editor takes care of the actual map displaying... The information in the paragraph above just makes sure you get a map after you consume it.
I'm betting an Always On got nixed, whether by me or you....
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Eidolon repeatedly asking for 5,000 Gold is definitely an error on my part. I could of swore that he went to the shop after paying him, but something isn't right somewhere - for you at least.
For your remix, mixing things up and balancing a few things to your liking would certainly be enough for me. I tell you what wouldn't be enough is just "remixing" a few maps.
I'd prefer you do a little and actually finish the project, than try to pull off something grand, get burnt out, and never complete it. ^_^
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Metal is a subgenre of Rock?
*clears throat*
*glares*
...You didn't have to put it that way. ^_^ I guess I would have put it as "My music wouldn't exist if they would have got it right the first time.", but that's not quite right either.
Many of the extreme metal genres utilize different elements than rock music; mainly in themes and song structure. The only thing extreme metal has in common with rock anymore is the musician and instrument lineup.
....the rest I'd say is vastly different.
Probably why (if I had to choose) I'd take a Rachmaninoff or Chopin over Marilyn Manson or Disturbed. I like paragraphs of music, with bridges - none of this verse chorus, verse chorus poppycock. >_<
GAH! Enough of that music rant! How'd that happen!? You tricked me!
*gets out a pair of headphones*
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For the record, changing paddfg6 in the ini doesn't seem to work. Perhaps you got the spelling wrong? I also set my resolution to a custom setting while I was in there, so I know the ini changes took.
PS: I think the odds of my doing anything to cause the Dark Guide to want to disappear are extremely slim. It could very well be another SoM bug however (it is very buggy afterall)
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Could I get access to the private "Side Projects" forum to talk about remixing/appending to DoM?
I dunno if Tom would prefer to be completely surprised by changes, or would mind offering some input. I have some ideas I think would work well, but I would like some feedback, and without spoiling the "side-project" for future players by gabbing about all the additions/changes in these forums :twisted:
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I tried SoM on last night... it's a little addictive in it's quaint simplicity. I already added onto the first map of DoM a bit. I would post a screen of the new area, but no upload feature on the bbs :evil:
I don't intend to add a lot map wise for the first work over. But I want to spruce up the beginning to a large degree...
For now I added a small courtyard with a large door gateway going in, and a similar but doorless gateway going out. This is sort of the campground for an outpost for the mission to save Maunstraut or whatever :twisted:
There is a small cellar like bunker with beds and stuff. The player now has a squire that stays there more or less. I plan on letting the squire have a shop that sells everything for 0 and buys everything for 0. Think storage. Also in the courtyard is the tomb of Sonellian, who is being billed as the previous savior of Maunstraut (same sort of situation) ...Nothing was found of him but his armor however, which is buried there. And it has now been unearthed for this mission (this sort of ties in to the new ending I've planned)
You begin on a path where you meet many npcs who wish you well. Once you go through the final gate however it is locked behind you (this whole area is quarantined... due to the impending darkness and all)
Your beginning equipment is heavy knight armor. Standard stuff more or less. But once inside you can talk to the squire and dawn Sonellian's armor if you wish (including the charm... I will probably change the look of some of the pieces as well)
There will also be an old NPC who knows something of local lore who can Truth Mirror stuff like Sonellian's armor pieces and standard stuff for you. The other Truth Mirror NPC will be gone (or more likely moved to the base camp)
The stuff you find once inside however will only be knowledgeable to many specialized truth mirror NPCs scattered around (assuming that works like the shops)
I also moved the Forgotten Blade pond just outside this courtyard to the side. It will no longer be drain-able. But hopefully you can get it with a rebirth event. It will be more powerful, and I think maybe no other Moonlight like weapons will appear (some Truth Mirror NPC might remember something about the sword)
I have a few more game turning point things to add, but just to give you an idea of what sort of things I'm up to~
PS: Once I started working with SoM I noticed how all the outside barriers are cut off not very high off the ground at all, and very sharply. It's a bit sad really. It's not hard to notice either, thought I guess I only just did. I think it would be more noticeable with a further draw distance.
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Very cool ideas so far.
I have some questions for you and possibly some answers.
-For starters I like the whole 'not setting off on a quest with no gear' idea since it is more realistic. I like how you incorporated a way to make it reasonable.
-The banker may be a difficult thing to pull off depending on what you are going to give him in stock for the $0 cost. I really wish that SOM understood that when you sell a shop keeper an item he should have at least one of it in his inventory to sell back..but it doesn't.
-The 'Assess' function that you assign to an NPC does not limit the choices of items they can and cannot reveal to you (I am pretty sure, but I will double check tonight). In other words, having experts scattered about to tell you about certain items can't be done via the assess feature, however you could give an item no description in the items editor, and instead create events on the special npc's that can do an IF/END IF style event that will prompt you to inquire about specific items you may have that they may know about. If you need help with this let me know, its pretty easy though.
-The rebirth event is doable for the sword, see my earlier post on how to handle the revive function upon player death. Again if you need help let me know and I will write you the specific event code for it.
-If you are creating outside areas, you can help create the illusion of higher barriers by setting ground pieces behind your first row of wall map pieces and raising them up 5.5 units from the corresponding wall pieces. (The outside set is 5.5m high). You can place them all the way from -20 to +20 so the walls can be quite large. Alternatively you can download my cliffside set from the main site and utilize it to build massive 11m and 22m high walls.
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I'm expecting at least half of my hopes to be dashed, but hell that's what I'll remake SoM for. DoM being the first major game, warrants attention I think (as long as I'm given permission to fuck with it)
First off, about half the objects don't show up with the DoM archive Tom uploaded. I'm guessing this is because I'm expected to download them myself?? I've downloaded everything from From's site, and utilized them correctly I think (again I think) ...except for all the individual npc/enemy files. At this point I'm guessing they're not included in the patches, in which case I'd very much like the option to download them all in one archive so arranged that they can be merged with the existing datatree in one copy over operation :twisted:
Same goes for what I think are some fan generated files, from what I can gather from John's website add-ons.
If I'm going to apply translations at some point, I really gotta beg to have all of that in one archive as well!!
I also checked out the expanded tools devkit. A lot of it looked interesting. At the least I can see re-skinning NPCs and monsters, but not object/etcetera for some reason. Though apparently you can generate those from X files?? And there is something maybe there for Map blocks.
I'm not hyper enthusiastic about messing with this business, but it does have a cult aspect to it, however spartan the tools are.
I actually think there is enough there though, that if we can develop our own tools, we could actually make the core executibles quite functional (if not super efficient. Theoretically we could eventually bypass all the tools I guess, and still have something that will pass thru the runtime's bullshit detector :twisted:
Remake or not, there is something to be said for still having something run (however constrained) on the old way-back machine.
I just don't get why the expanded tools are so hit and miss. Some classes of objects, get this, others get that, with no rhyme or reason as far as I can tell.
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Oh and another thing I don't get... my map is seamless, but around certain spots on the ground I always insta-die when testing the map. I don't fall thru or anything, just die instantly. I do this on a super fly graphics machine, and on the machine I have to run SoM on (to get the graphics to work in the map editor) which can barely run the games at 640x480 rez.
Also about placing map squares behind map squares for height... would there not be an obvious seam?? Because all the boader pieces are cut half way (obviously)
PS: To be honest, I'd just like high jet black cliffs so that you can hide other parts of your map from being seen over the tops of your outside pieces! :evil: :twisted: :evil: ooo(but even that might not blend right against the fog, depending on the operation used)
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Don't write off any hopes just yet, usually in SOM where there is a will there is a way.
As far as your objects, if you download the installer I have posted in the SOM forum, and use the batch file in there it will load everything into your SOM directory that is available on John's site. This will get many of the items and objects youre not seeing, however Tom still had a few in his database that I didn't (and still don't) have...but the number is far fewer than if you were to just install SOM from a disk rather than my files. Try that for starters. Maybe Tom can weigh in on this, but last we spoke I was under the impression he didn't think he had any custom graphics...so who knows?
The toolkits are most definitely half-assed. They give some nice functionality but were really left incomplete.
As far as developing and organizing our own tools/custom addons etc, that was one of the points of this site, to try to centralize everything everyone works on so it can be shared and not conflict with files that others are making...to make a database of object IDs for the items/models/maps etc so we don't have to overwrite each other all the time.
I am not sure why you are insta-dieing on certain map pieces UNLESS you are missing the .mhm files for certain parts. Again I recommend using the files I have posted http://www.swordofmoonlight.com/SOMTools/SOMInstaller.zip to make sure all your map pieces have the proper collission data. (keep in mind to move all your current files to another directory just in case there is any issues).
As far as high jet black cliffs...download my cliff side set (main page download section) and give those a try...they arent completely black but if you raise them they can be up to 22m high (4 times the height of the standard ground pieces) and are relatively dark in color, so if they are far beyond the background they will look pretty dark.
Please keep the dialogue coming, this is getting my juices flowing for continuing the tutorial section I started on Monday!
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Well after monkeying with From's patches, I can't get into the actual game anymore. Some bug with som_db.exe :evil:
I will try your setup next I guess. I know that DoM does use a number of add-ons available on John's site but not available on From's site. It is dumb the way From chose to number all the files rather than give them proper names.
I'm pretty burned out with it for now. I better get back to working on slightly more practical problems. I gave it an honest shot, but kinda ended on a sour note so far.
We definitely need tutorials (and not necessarily of the basic kind) given the general obfuscation of SoM.
On the plus side, all those extra tools should make cracking the formats relatively easy.
I'm sure I could turn out some quick and easy applets, but MFC etcetera I really am no good for. I do have an old one executable project I could probably jerry rig into a temporary all in one tool in short order (in the same vain as the add-on tools that is)
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I will also add (just for the fun of it) that though I will let the player start with Sonellian armor and stuff, I plan on pushing SoM to it's limits in terms of smartness. I will do everything I can to make the player play carefully. I'm going to really force them to change up equipment to deal elemental/melee damage. I will also be changing the Sonellian armor around a great deal, and I have a number of interesting ideas that if half of them work half as well as I'd like will really mix up the gameplay.
So many ideas they can't fit into this thread. I just can't decide whether to address them all in one thread, or each in their own (generally more helpful for future browsing)
For instance, I'm going to take away all elemental attributes from the Sonellian set I think, and instead put a ton of elemental attributes into Sonellian's ring. So if the play wants them they have to take off the charm. The ring will probably also drain MP. So for taking on the elements they player can either play smart and use the elemental gear, or use the ring which will be good all around but not as good as a max elemental armor set for a given element.
I'd really like for the player to get a constant HP/MP regen independent of their equipment and based on their body/mind stats. But if not, I'll just make sure regenerative equipment is plentiful some how.
PS: Also about changing equip... I realize it's probably out of the question, but I'd love to somehow force the player to not be able to carry too many heavy things around (ie. add inventory to weight or limit the number of big items in tow somehow)
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No fair! You guys get to post and I'm stuck at work! Oh well.... it's true what they say. If you want "fair" in life, you have to drive to it and buy tickets.
I'm thinking that is John's hypothesis that if you changed padCfg6 in the .ini file TO paddfg6 - it will work. (that means leaving the GAME.EXE alone for that to work) It really doesn't work? I'll let him know....
Speaking of hypothesis, I'm betting I messed up an Always On event on one particular map as far as the disappearing Dark Guide.
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I'd like to offer input on DoM, but I'm afraid that what I offer will be like what I created. I definitely made the game according to my preferences.
I was going for a bit of a barren feel to the game, especially starting out, in correlation to the opening story that its at "the world's/Maunstraut's darkest corner".
Not to be critical, but I'm not huge on handed explanations either. I really loved finding strange equipment, but hated finding "all about it" in a section I just so happened to sooner or later traverse. To me, the mysteries of the world offer an attraction unparalleled to something fully explained.
Sonneillon's equipment in DoM, Galth Fee's equipment in KFI, and probably 45% of the equipment in Shadow Tower (among others KF-ish games) are good examples of good (mysterious) items - that "hungry for more" in a good way, rather than full and eventually complacent.
I can't think think of another word other than "buzz kill" when it comes to unraveling Sonneillon.
I do agree about the character being "naked" starting out being a bit strange. "We want you to save the world, but you can't take anything with you." Could have thought that one through a little better for DoM....
You're mention of the "old NPC local lore" - I'm guessing you didn't find La Vierge in DoM? He identifies all your items and equipment.
You guys mentioned ASSESS - There are two types of "shops". "Trader" which is the typical buy/sell, and assess which is the "fortune teller" ala KFI or La Vierge in DoM. Assess shops display EVERYTHING in YOUR inventory, and display the descriptions you've put in the parameter editor for each item.
(I think your storage "shop" is a great idea, but I wouldn't tie an NPC to it myself. (think re-occurring vault) Do I sound misanthropic or antisocial in not wanting a game full of "those fucking people"? If you've got an object, you can set up a "shop" (for a vault) via event - since you could use the same shop, it would be nice to pick up something a little too heavy at a different part of the game from the same storage.)
The weight limit is a great concept too, but I ran into problems with that for DoM. If you'll notice, the weapons weigh a matter of ounces - even setting it to 1.5lbs, the weapon swung like someone trying to gather the strength to swing a ceder tree. Why?
Physical Strength. DoM, the player starts out with a strength of 3 - with a strength of 30 starting out, a 1.5lb weapon would be cake to swing. However, higher strength means you'll need higher stats for all the enemies.... and I completed quite a few of them before I worked on weapon concepts. Ok, here's some proof that I have tendencies to be lazy - by the time I figured out "weights", I didn't want to change a huge section of the game I already completed - especially with a weight concept more or less out.
....I guess if you times every enemy and weapon stat by 10, you could come up with some realistic weighing weapons. Since I didn't have equipment weight as a factor, the armors and accessories all weigh 0.0.
Don't get me wrong - I do not disagree with the changes you're contemplating on applying. I really AM truly looking forward to your remix, more or less regardless of what you do - I think it is a wonderful gift to me. (is that egotistical to say? ...heh, "for me".)
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SoM has a lot of quirks, something I believe I've found out a lot about in my months experiences with the program. ....for instance, hitting enter in formatted messages, standard messages and parameter descriptions since the word wrap isn't meant for English. (Yay! Japanese types no spaces! Yay! It doesn't wrap words, it chops them!)
Another quirk? Either one of you guys tried to make a defensive spell? (and it doesn't save your settings)
*evil laughter*
....I'm sure there are a few more, but I can't think super clearly right now, as I'm headed to the gym for some high class pushing.
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I agree with you on all accounts more or less. But I want to change it only slightly, and the basic premise of Sonellian's armor works is just right I think for the job (assuming everything balances out)
Tom explained to me why your weight calculations didn't work out. I'm going to take him for his word, and apply his prescription to all your equipment and hope it works out (I think everything needs to have a weight)
Possibly with 0 body you are swinging a cedar tree. 0 body stat would probably qualify as some enfeebled status (a la curse or whatever)
SoM just doesn't have enough armor to go around. I swear it's like they just made enough pieces for a KF1 remake?!? (and then lock you out of making more -- and if I could just re-skin the fuckers that would stretch for miles)
But you know... if however a name is attached to the armor, then the name has to be legendary... otherwise no one would know what to call it :twisted:
As for the squire... I'm a sucker for realism. Even if you're taking on the forces of darkness (or whatever in this case) focused on an entire kingdom... at the least you're gonna need a bed to sleep in and food to eat, and if not a wife to look after the place while you're off to work, a squire.
^He won't say much. The arch demons will also be able to summon him for you to their lairs (so you can easily equip for the elements) ...and probably they will take all your HP and MP for the job :twisted:
Anything more populated than a ghost town is too much in any self respecting KF game anyway. For every NPC I add, I could scratch two. Of course I found the ASSESS guy (I even mentioned him like 3 or 4 posts back / moving him to the starting courtyard... instead of a literal hole in the wall!!)
Who else would be willing to quarantine themselves with a champion than his squire and an old man soon to die anyway??
I think I will add a number of monster NPCs though. If that is I can make that work somehow (you have a logman already in DoM so I'm hoping that will work)
PS: I don't think there is room to really explain Sonellian via his equipment anyway... Just what the equipment actually does (the player needs to know after all... and your descriptions already contain so much)
I'm planning on seriously reworking three or four points of the game event wise for the remix. Also I think I'm going to completely remake the Wind Lair from scratch, because it just doesn't feel like wind enough. I will probably recycle the Wind Lair map as a castle dungeon (defacto Dark Lair) ...and I'm thinking of adding a mid-game-boss to that map (who has Mithras captive... but is also captive himself)
I also have special plans for the Light Armor which will be the fourth priority after reworking the final battle (which might require four more mini-maps based on combination of elementals which require gaining the favor of two arch demons to unlock... the total of 8 maps will each have a piece of Light equipment unlockable with a light key which the four arch demons cough up sometime around the point you get the prism of whatever... only Light Armor will prove virtually useless because it protects against light -- not dark... so it must have a special purpose... ah complexity)
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when i was referring to assess i did mean the vendor type btw. Like tom said that is how you get the npc to tell you about the items in your inventory. The work around for your situation (as i mentioned earlier) is to simply remove the description from the items you want only special npcs to know about...and then create "haveitem=1" events for the items in question with the various npcs scattered about.
additionally, the weight system in SOM is based on kilograms and not pounds, which might added to your confusion in creating 'realistic' weights. If you consider that 1kilo = 2.2 lbs then you can understand that a standard medieval dagger weighed about .5 kilos (just over a pound) and a long sword somewhere in the range of 1.7-2 kilos. An axe would likely be 2.5 kilos or more. At that rate the game actually does make sense if your character starts with a strength of say 5-10 and it increases by one every level and every 100 attack swings. The character could start out swinging a dagger/short sword just fine and in a few levels pick up a long or broad sword and have decent recovery. Believe it or not Tom, your weapons having a 1 kilo weight isnt that far off from reality ;)
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In response to Holy (btw what is your real name I hate going by board names hehe) a couple things.
-encumberance can be added, its in the system table.
-if your SOM.DB is crashing it might be due to the fact you reinstalled but didnt set the compatibility mode on all the programs SOM uses to windows 98 compatibility. Also, if it is crashing on the map editor, you will have to disable direct X.
-I am working on the tutorial now, cant say how fast I will be done, but i will try to make it as detailed as possible. check it out so far if you havent (its quite short atm but its a work in progress..)
www.swordofmoonlight.com/Tutorial.htm
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If it isn't straight forward to have an NPC assess items selectively for you, I will just have the one know it all. I've seen the SoM dialog, and it looks like that should work at a glance (and it would be dumb not to)
Also I think the NPC storage should work at well. Though my game is bugging at the moment so I can't test it. Unfortunately if it does work, probably the storage NPC has be setup to buy every item (I will give the squire a 1 coin tip if so)
PS: What does it take to make an NPC sit? And I just know I had another half decent question on the tip of my tongue??? Oh yes... I think I wanted to know if it is possible to Truth Mirror monsters?? I never could get that to work in DoM. Or what about Truth Mirroring items before taking them? Though there is a good change I'll take the TM out of this DoM remix. Also no online guides, and no easy in game maps if any... only knowledge of DoM might save you :twisted:
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I think compatibility should be inherited by subprocesses, but if this persists, I'll try anything. Right now though the weather is miserable and there is a good chance the power will go out (my satellite modem probably won't last long for that matter... so this is good bye for today)
Before I go though, I had a good idea for a Wind Lair before I forget (if it will work) ...basically I need an event to push the player around like wind. And one strategy for counteracting this instability is trying to get your weight up as high as possible to negate the effect. It's a good idea regardless... I should add it to the wishlist thread I started over in the "for the fans" dept.
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Your download finished and seems intact (first time I've had to use a download manager on this machine)
My name is Michael, if two syllables are too much, Mick (just for the record -- with peers, I only answer to Michael :twisted:)
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^But I prefer holydiver (my screen name) ...two words, however you like it.
Less confusing for readers that way :twisted:
I just use Tom/John because I never can remember their screen names (laziness) ...actually I just realized today HwitVlf (I think I got it) is probably John (waiting for a confirmation on that)
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Ya thats john, and when i remember how to add you to the side projects group I will do so, now let me have a look see for that permissions function....
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CRAP! I didn't know HwitVlf was John.
I just thought he was a random contributing person. Well that kind of makes more sense of things. I learned something today!
Also, I pretty much figured out what "encumbrance" means as well - I saw it on a game and thought "eh, probably like stamina or something", Todd used the word again and I needed to know. Thanks to my friend Webster's book, thus another light bulb has been activated!
When I think of the name HolyDiver, I think of Dio. I wouldn't be surprised if it was in reference to Dio.
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I don't actually listen to Dio (recreationally or whatever -- no Dio folder in my massive mp3 collection -- not that there shouldn't be) but yeah, on some level Dio seems KF appropriate... but mostly (if it isn't obvious) Holy Diver is the prime directive of KF is it not?? (I thought this would be obvious)
Ie. Holy = the holy alignment of the hero (light needle and so on...) and Diver = spelunking that subterranean dungeon (but yeah it also has that pop angle = Dio... there is even a video game called Holy Diver -- which is based on Dio)
I hope Dio is Metal enough for you Hguols??
PS: Just to be fair, whenever I see Hguols, I think of the little big man of Labyrinth :twisted:
^Because I guess I've no clue how to pronounce that :roll:
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Armor and reskins...if you really want to that would be fantastic...
I can get you all sorts of models, I just suck ass at reskinning them :P
(SOM doesnt really shade models in game much, so you really have to texture them with some sort of shading, which i despise doing)
How about all the gear from KF2 for a start? Have all those in .mqo format right now so we could easily get them in the game.
Let me know if you are interested and we can go through the how tos!
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Re-skinning really isn't that much trouble. I'd mostly just re-colour stuff and do a little of this and that (photoshopping mostly) ...I'm not a huge fan of SoM's esthetic in the first place. If I really wanted to change the artistic direction, I'd start by making the faces way more abstract, and I'd take the eyes off some of the monsters (because they look ridiculous -- hell I'd probably do that first)
^One thing I have noticed though, is the equipment art seems way better than the NPC art.
Oh btw, I did have a tiny thought about my map additions insta-killing the player. Before I'd finished everything the screen would flicker blue. I thought that might be cause I was playing it with virtually software graphics. But I noticed reading something of John's that screen flickers like that are an effect... then I remembered the water lair key area was on the starting map. So it's just a hunch, and I have no idea how, but I'm 99% sure the death is somehow because of however Tom has setup that water drowning event to work.
PS:
How about all the gear from KF2 for a start? Have all those in .mqo format right now so we could easily get them in the game.
What exactly do you mean? Were the files just sitting there on the game disc? If so I wonder if the PS1 era armored core discs also have model files out in the open like that?? Ripping them from the game is impossible to do perfectly. Do your models includes textures? I've ripped textures from PS1 games without much trouble before. Do you just want to make them look more SoM like? The gear in SoM is really a cut above the rest of the game. I'd almost prefer making the SoM gear look more like KF2 gear (like I said, it looks too good for the NPCs)
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The water drowning may be accomplished several ways, he may have had a trigger that had a count down timer on it, say 60 seconds? Maybe you are crossing the start trigger (going in the water or at least the radius that starts the trigger) but not crossing back out of the water to stop the death timer?
Tom I am sure could answer that for sure.
The models are basically sitting on the PS1 games, and most likely you could rip the armored core models if you wish. The software I used to pull the files was a trial version, and I just chose to rip everything i could off KF2 while the trial period lasted hehe.
They are currently in .lwo format (lightwave) and can be imported into metasequioa as a .mqo model, which of course can be exported as a .x file which can be (lol) converted to a .mdo file which SOM can use. They are, unfortunately, without their textures, however the models do come with blank textures analogous to all the ones the model had. So you will have a pure white model, with between 2-6 texture slots already mapped to the appropriate faces...you just need to create a bitmap to make the textures look like something other than white.
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^That is good news... I spent a bit of time investigating capturing Armored Core data from PS1 and PS2 emulators :twisted:
Almost always Japanese companies compile crucial intellectual property data like that directly into the programs code rather than loading it from another file I think. Especially back in the day... these days maybe hard encryption is preferred. Japanese are notoriously more likely to make such data hard to find. Possibly because they're not likely to litigate if someone does find/use it (even for gain)
I think most of the weirdness went away after I used your patched filetree. Though I still recall getting a save game screen when using the action button near a gate... but I haven't seen that in a while. I'm pretty sure that was after the patch went thru... possibly I did something, like save something that made it go away.
Still I'm missing some odd stuff... possibly just Sonellian's Charm's graphic file. I think that is probably something Tom cooked up himself. It's not in the Ring selection at least, and I'm pretty sure it would have to be Ring class.
The internet has been no good for playing an MMO' I play with a weekly weekend event tonight, so I had some time in my schedule to fuck around.
My biggest conclusion after tonight, is the equipment selection is so piss poor. Also I was disappointed to find how nailed down the bad status effects seem to be. There doesn't even seem to be a way to adjust poison potency, global or otherwise from what I can see (poison's biggest threat seems to be annoying you to death with flashing lights / distracting you from when you're really being hit)
Is it even possible to recognize the players status with a global event and do things to them during that time? I did some event stuff with NPCs, but I don't see how to do global events really... even per map. I'm guessing maybe you must attach them to some object anyway??
PS: Also not being able to copy (or at least cut) paste stuff on the activity map is a pain in the ass.
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As far as drowning, I guess there are several ways you can do it.
In DoM, it's the old school "drowning" ala KFI & II US. You hit water over your head, The End - you died.
I placed quite a few objects (event dummies do the trick) below the map pieces (since all objects have collision detection) and set up a radius (or rectangle) trigger (variable) with a Leaf 00 - Change Player Parameter HP Set To 0
Radius's actually create a floor to the ceiling "cone" (rectangles make floor to ceilling walls) so if you plan on having a bridge, you'll need gaps in your "walls" - thus MANY event dummies (especially with a winding moat.) and much testing....
For the new school drowning ala KF:TAC, you could set up a timer. (I'll just assume, for now, you know how to create a timer.)
You could have the timer counter, when it gets to 1, decrease a certain amount of hitpoints and reset the timer counter (to 0). Since timers count up in the counter 1 point per second, (no ands ifs or buts) you could have a certain number of hit points drain per second.
Set Timer in Counter Value
IF (counterA = 1)
Change Player Parameter HP Decrease by 10
Alter Counter Value (counterA = 0)
END
Naturally, event triggers to null your timer will need to be placed at your deep water entrance and deep water exit.
....also, with this method, considering Level stats might make a difference. For instance, a "drowning game" that would be impossible at Level 3, might be ridiculously easy, no-challenge-whatsoever at Level 11.
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Oh btw, if you have some model files or whatever in a standard format... I'd like to have some of them just for the fun of it (you gotta debug against something) while I gradually workout all the pieces to the remake I've lauded around here like a dead horse since I showed up :twisted:
Once things really get hot and heavy I'll start breaking it in Tom's DoM filetree :wink:
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Ill get you a zip file of some starter KF2 item models probably tomorrow, im not at home right now.
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For most Japanese PS era games, the level models are most likely to be stored in separate files. If you can find level's for KF2 that would be even more awesome than the items I think. Making a SoM tileset from them would be even better :twisted:
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Tom: I know I'm missing some files I need from your project space. Like the Sonellian Charm and some Grass object and probably others still don't show up. I'm pretty sure everything in Todd's patched install archive is there.
Also my project seems to have some probs. I don't know if it's because of missing files or not. But some events tend to hit the wrong targets. Like I have a grave object, a magic learning object, a save point, and a king npc nearby. The king saves, when the magic is learned, the grave disappears, and the save point does nothing and so on. It's basically like the numbers that show up in the map editor don't hit the right events once in the tester (off by about two)
Not all the events I setup are like this, but I can't place my finger on why the ones that are would be so.
edited: I know the most recent object I setup was a gate in front of the death fountain (I took out the monster plants... but I will unlock the termite queen... or more probably take her door away)
Anyway, that gate, when you go to open it, instead it disappears and says magic learned. Obviously that's nothing of my fault, because you don't even have to setup an event for doors (it's in the extra dialog) ...but basically all my events are airtight anyway. Just something weird is up.
PS: I just had a fun idea for an alternative death fountain boss...
edited: I'll give you a hint... it is called Death's Bliss :twisted:
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For the record, I start drowning when I enter the rock caves now :evil:
^When playing from your open source download.
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Hmm.
Have you deleted, overwritten or added any new objects to your maps?
When you look at an event setup in the master list (not the one you get to from the activity section, but the one you reach under map settings) you can see that the events are tied to specific item IDs. In other words, if somehow a database ID that was pointing at the king now pointed at the grave or whatever, the event is still tied to the map object number, not necessarily the item/object name etc. What I suspect may have happened, is if there were any events/objects/items placed on a map before you imported data, or if anything in parameters editor had been moved around, deleted or replaced, it may corrupt the whole events table in the database.
I dont know entirely whats going on behind the scenes, but i suspect the fact you are missing models has a lot to do with it. For instance, say you are missing two item models that invalidate the map editor's references to them, you may shift the object IDs for the rest of the items/objects etc by 2, thus overwriting what may have been plant (1) in tom's data to king (1) in yours. I can tell you right now, when I try to add custom models to mine, if I messed up a file along the way and invalidate an item/object already placed on the map....SOM will remove those items and replace those objects with ones that earlier were above them.
I would suggest getting all the files Tom has first, seeing if that fixes your issues, and if not we can dig further.
Tom would just have to pack up his 'data' directory and post it here for you to have all the same stuff.
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Whatever is happening, it's a corruption or missing file thing. Basically the game is not doing what the editors says it should.
PS: I noticed when I used your install base (with all the add-ons) most of these sorts of issues went away. I think probably if I can get everything in there as you say, this will stop (it seems to be only something that is messed up on the playing end)
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One thing you can do for an odd wind lair type effect is make a bunch of walking NPCs that are invisible. It gives you a sort of wind field to walk thru. You can even have touching one Slow you. But I can't figure any way to actually knock the player off their position. You'd think some enemy magic could do that, but I don't think so.
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Once I get Tom's custom models, I will add them to my own and make a new installer pack so you can tons more stuff to use....just don't laugh at some of the crappy custom models I have in there :oops:
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I might as well get honest - I'm pretty lost in this thread.
What is it you guys need?
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There are some files in DOM and Tris that dont exist on the SOM cd.
I have no idea where you got em, since John's site doesnt have them either ...(maybe martin?)
Anyways, to remix DOM, HolyDiver is going to need those files, and I would like to have them as well to add to the overall list of files everyone can tap to make games from.
What we need from you if you would like to humor us, is for you to take the contents of your data folder in your SOM directory and zip it up and load it up on the ftp server. This would include all the models in your enemies/objects/items folders so that he would have everything placed on your maps.
Once I get that I will add all my customs to it and post a new SOM installer that has all the files the community has thus far so people wont need to download add-on packs.
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I was being daft earlier poking around in an exe dump looking for counter addresses no less (and no luck) and I noticed there are two controller options that are spelled wrong... 7 has a c rather than C I think it was... which probably explains why my change did not take (I think that was this thread at least)
Fromsoftware should've playtested this to hell to figure out what game makers need, but it didn't even get play tested enough to find two typos in the controller configurations (not even patched via one of the updates??)
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I just finished going thru all the items rearranging and pruning stuff as I pleased (things are really going to be different)
Anyway... there are a ton of items missing files. I think John has explained to me the .prf files are missing or something. So pretty much, I'm sure I have your data files, but I probably need your .prf files??
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Sorry for the delay - here's my som/data folder all zipped into a nice little rar archive.
SomData.rar (http://www.swordofmoonlight.com/DoM/SomData.rar)
Again for the delay, had fun at work yesterday - I got to call the police, "residents" being "removed", etc.
What? Excuses are like assholes? ...Everyone's got them and they all stink? How unsympathetic! ^_^
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Hey Ok! Copying that over my SoM install datatree seemed to make all the glitches I know of go away just like that!
If I overwrote anything I'd like to know. But priority goes to DoM in my repository, so smooth sailing from here out let's hope~
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Good!
I'm glad that seemed to be the fix, and I hope it is smooth sailing for you in this project!
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I am happy to have found this site, game looks cool, I dont have a D-pad so I am not as nimble with my ten fingers, I am just an index and thumb guy, all I can say is I have a BIG SMILE when I saw DOM. Just wanted to say thank you and i'll be running to buy a D-pad . :biggrin:
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I hope you enjoy the game!
^_^
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I registered for two things. First, DoM has been a wonderful experience thus far. Design wise, my only complaint is that the starting enemies are slightly too strong compared to the rest of the game, but getting my hands on the long sword fixed that problem rather nicely.
The other thing I wanted to mention is I encountered a strange bug. It's not game ending, but still annoying.
I've lost the ability to kill monsters in the path of sorrows/healing tree area. Should I kill one, the game crashes upon the corpse fading away. I've checked the Dark Guide, and it doesn't look like there's anything left to do there, so it's not like I can't finish the game, but still. Strangely, no other areas seem to be affected.
Any ideas as to why that's happening? Games crashing mid-session is nothing new to me, so I'm more curious than anything else.
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I think someone has said before this is probably because you're not picking up your gold and stuff the monsters leave behind. SOM is just chock-full of bugs unfortunately.
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Yep. This was the case. I just went around and picked up a good 500 "invisible" gold. I think the gold spawns beneath the small bumps on each grass tile, and I don't grab items if I don't see any drop.
Funny, I and some friends were just talking about Morrowind and Oblivion's loot overflow bags just the other day. They're the Elder Scrolls' answer to the same problem.
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Everything drops stuff left and right in DoM. I'm working on a new branch of DoM where there is really very little in the way of drops (all items weigh you down) and what coins you do collect are worth a lot but can also add up/get heavy. So hopefully people won't run into this sort of thing. This is definitely a bug we should look into fixing if somehow possible :sweatdrop:
EDITED: This bug also makes the CRUCIAL (or whatever John's called it) item setting pretty silly, since the drop garbage collection system doesn't even seem to work in the first place!! Still if you can't see them that is also a problem :doh:
^If the coin model is in a file we might be able to make it float higher off the ground... and if not, there might be other ways~
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Lovely resolution :cool:
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Just showing off the psychedelic colours Som was able to generate :aroused:
Too bad the black menu tint is there; it really dulls them out. The resolution is 1920x1200. All my monitors are that... I think it might be the highest resolution available on the market, but I could very well be wrong (it's pretty common for that reason anyway)