Should we make a list of Map Piece dimensions?

[HwitVlf]

I was thinking that it takes a bit of work to figure out the dimensions of old map Pieces in order to make new Pieces that match up.
Would it be a good idea to keep a 'database' of the vertex coordinates for the outer edges on existing map Pieces so people can easily make new Pieces that precisely 'plug in' to the old?

[Madison Lastrega]

I agree , and finding away to allow more than 1024 would also be a good present for 2010 as well and would allow for detail orianted guys like me, to expand my World.... And now that I have you thinking John. What about using a hex editor to find the values that SoM uses for such factors as Map pieces or objects available in a map, to alter the values? I mean to the average builder 500 objects is cool, but me I would like to double that amount to 1000 if I could or even 750 would do..... one of my maps right now has 300 and I still have 1/4 of the map to do. As you well know John, I want my world to be as fun to look at, as it is functionable.... I know that with modern machines increasing these limits wont slow the works down too bad ... And I am sure that it can be done.... I just wish SoM would go into Open source then we could give it the funtions we ALL dream of.... Any Ideas?
John, one last question? does the 500 limit mean 500 objects, 500 items 500 NPC's ect or is that 500 TOTAL for all of them, if that is the case I have to find a way to raise the level or my game WILL use all 64 maps to have MY level of detail...... Thanks my friend:)

[Madison Lastrega]

Well I feel like a big dummy Now.... I was wondering why Todd's item set was filled with Objects...Genius:) I did how ever imply the idea of multi maps for single areas, Hence my Demo (Buckaunis) is broken down by North, South, Mausoleum, Falls and East Buckaunis.... Yes my game is that Vast:) and awfully time consuming must I add. but worth it There are seven areas to my World map.... If all goes well, each area will be multi-plexed so to speak:) and there ios one map Specificly for my various fortune tellers... There houses are Optical illusions, whereas they seem Small outside but when you enter you teleport to map 60 and bam, your in a fat crib:) I may even do that to some villages if can make a new set of house map pieces that have 2 floors and not one IE the castle set. brillant:) then house could feel larger and more realistic other that a huge place on the map....... Thanks for time too:) Oh yeah it's the trees that take the most of my objects, Trees and grass: would be cool to invent map pieces with A tree on it or grass:)...Hmmmmmmmm

[dmpdesign]

Before you go dabbling in multi-tiered sets...let me just give you the warnings.

1 - multi-tiered sets are difficult to use SOM based lighting for because it tries to apply lighting from ground level.
2 - you can only go + or -10 meters from your starting level before SOM instant kills you.
3 - enemies will try to attack you from above or below...depending on what they available to them, they may be successful.
4 - try to limit your map parts to single sides rather than building them with block polygons that have a back you won't see...there are two reason for this.  The first is even polygons you dont see are being controlled by the processor and it will slow you down badly to build alot of unused polygons, additionally if you dont merge your building blocks you will see stuff like the below screen shot (using part #899 that I made incorrectly based on john's set).
5 - chests/barrels and anything inspectable becomes an issue as you can inspect stuff that is on a floor below you.  There are ways around this that john has come up with...but it will be a major pain to try and keep track of the events you would need to maintain it perfectly.

OK with that said...I hope you do build multi-level houses as I would love to see them (and play through them in your game). Not having multi-tiered areas would really lower the quality of any SOM made game...mine included.  I tried to put in 2 level areas...and I have a few that work ok, but I do wish at times I had spent the time to make more.

[dmpdesign]

I hadn't tried it because the amount of events necessary to accomplish it in my game was impossible.

I guess it depends on the scenario but you'd really have to have some sort of script tool to help implement the events...something like what Kilroy did with AutoIt.

The reason I say that is...just take for example the fire crystal 'lighthouse' tower from the west shore in my game.  You could fall off of any side, and there are about 12 blocks that make up the top...so you would have to have at least 12 different beginning falling events.  On top of that you would then have to make the game realize that the event should not be triggered on the way up....additionally you can fall to different heights from the top depending on whether or not you fell toward the ground or toward the steps one level below you...so there would be no good way of identifying how far the player falls if he changes angle mid fall.

Now the above scenario may not be in everyone's game...and maybe you were considering only adding falling damage between a known ledge height and falling distance...but my point is if you go the route of adding it to a cliff scenario...then logicallly a player would expect to see it from a tall building or multi-level stair case...and if you can't produce correct results for one scenario, its likely not a good idea to only do some areas with falling damage.

Just my 2 cents.

What would be nice is if they had just put the equation in the game for falling damage, but playing through KFJ, I realized there is no falling damage in that game, so they never had to.

What a shame it wasnt the KF1 US making tool...then it would have been preprogrammed with bows/multi-tier maps/falling damage and the works.

[Madison Lastrega]

I agree with John, I would love to impliment falling with my game.... I think I have an easy solution but would need some help to see if we can actully make SoM do it:) I have been studying the ISOs of both PS1 games...
As far as I can tell the engine is all event based simular to SoM. So maybe what they did was have 5 always on events in every map,  that were triggered by sudden distance (elevation in meters) changes. like for example , Remember when in KF1US the first bridge you came too , when you fell it takes 30 hp when you fall, no mater how you fell,the lighthouse I think was like 50 or so and you only got hurt from the top two levels if you fell( I remember that well, I was lazy and tried to walk off the damb thing to save time and died) and where got the samari sword you had to fall to get, that took like 250 or so... The point is if you had an always on event that could either like john said measure in time your disatance the fall, and then a preset damage amount based on the event that would work well... or if Som would allow you to set a timer based on height in meters:) I hope some of this makes sence, It does to me but hey, I'm wierd:) If it does make sence or sound possible , lets put our heads together and do it:)  I miss the bows too.Why they did not add the animation for it, is silly. We'll tackle that one next:)  but first Lets see if we can duplicte the events they used in the PS1 for falling, after all, it was an all event based engine, we just got to figure out how they set up the event(s) :)

[Madison Lastrega]

here is one theory on how to set up a perfect fall:) I want to use this scenerio for my lighthouse, but need some help to get the timer set to do it:) look at my example picture and tell me if this sounds like it would work? Thanks hope this helps some:)

[dmpdesign]

I guess I have a question about your outlined diagram you have above.

I get lost on the 5 event B triggers.

If event B is triggered, then you want a timer to begin that damages you after x amount of seconds?  If that is so...my question is, what guarantees that the event B trigger is not started before you are actually falling?  is it event C that detects falling and not B?

I suppose if the lighthouse is your only area where falling may occur you are probably safe, but if you begin to institute falling in a variety of heights/scenarios it will become a struggle.

Be mindful of the limitations on timers, that you realize maps share them, and turning them off can be hectic when you have many many events triggering them.

The way I guess I would approach your scenario...

Create an event that sets a counter (lets call it falling damage) value based on timer 0.  so that when timer 0 begins, the counter's value is equal to the number of seconds in the timer.

Now, create another event that is always on, and setup to fire when a seperate counter =1.  Call this counter 'falling timer' and have it 'begin timer 0' as its function.  Now this will only begin the timer when you trigger it.  If you try to measure a timer with an always on event that doesnt have a counter constraint for its activation, it will always begin when your in the map...so thats important to be sure you set up a different counter to trigger the always on event.

Now....I will have to make an assumption here.  Your elevator for the tower is in the middle of the tower or the outside?  I will assume its an external elevator for simplicity sake.  Say it takes you up 10 meters.  At the top you have a tower that is a 2x2 square of tiles.  You would next want to make an event on any or all of those 4 tiles that activates events that are all around those 4 tiles. 

This would give you 11 adjacent squares (I am not counting the elevator at this point) that would now have events that when you approach the square (youd have to test the size of the approach point to trigger it properly) it would alter the counter value of 'falling timer' to 1 thus triggering the timer measuring event.  You would then have an always on event that said (assuming it took 4 seconds to fall) that when counter "falling damage" = 4, then damage player and cause screen effect.  You would also want this event to set the counter "falling timer" back to 0 so that it can be repeatable.

That 'should' work for a very simple setup, but I still think trying to do this for anything beyond a tower scenario will become too difficult to maintain.

[dmpdesign]

Ya, i didnt really explain the scenario intelligently.  Using the approach rectangle system would be far easier than any radius circle indeed.

I apologize for being so pessimistic, I guess its just the way I am.

I hope you are able to get it working!

[Madison Lastrega]

Of course you can have my little guy:) I can't get your example to load for me, but I get a better understanding of the physics and think I can adjust the factors of my design, but could you please email me  or post the timer spec setup so I can study it? thanks a million? I still am fuzzy on the timer but like everything else I new something new all the time and you learn by testing..testing....and more testing.......